Isaacs Asher/Hyam/Benjamin = Charles Sinclair

[phillip]

Thank you Alma. We are trying to help Susan sort the puzzle of her family tree and any relevant data is a great help. I found in the London City Directories Henry Isaacs green grocer 8 Great Hermitage Street between 1865-1870 and you identified him based on the James Isaacs Order of Removal. It seems that Henry had a shop or at least traded from that address.

There appears to be no father's name on the James Isaacs Order of Removal only his mother Catherine. This maybe because his father is dead or else not living with his wife. The Hyam Isaacs who died in 1849 appears to be the most probable link.

What are your thoughts based on what we know?

[phillip]

Alma and Susan,
I have re-looked again on the Census for James Isaacs b 1825 + 5years and can see no person even with Ancestry.Co search options post 1851. The same applies to individuals named Isaac Isaacs.
There is 1 family tree which has a James Isaacs death March qtr 1885 age 59 Kensington 1a 97 with links to Sarah Gable.
Looking on Free BMD there are only a handful of James Isaacs deaths in the London area post 1857 when he is aged 32 on the Order of Removal and recorded ages from 1867 don't indicate any likely person until 1885.
Is he using another first name for the census?

Have I missed data?

[SusanLorraine]

Dear Alma and Philip, thank you so much for your persistence in trying to help me unravel the mystery of my family tree. I'm so excited to tell you that in the past 24 hours I've made the most amazing discovery, you won't believe it!!! I think I already mentioned that a couple of months ago,my 94 year-old father and I both did the Ancestry DNA (spit) test. We received the results back around Christmas time, which revealed that my father has 12% European Jewish DNA and I have inherited 5%. Unfortunately I've not had time to fully explore and analyse these results. Well, last night I was browsing through the DNA matches and "thru-lines" and discovered that I have a DNA match with someone called Norman Burland of Ontario who is my 5th cousin. It explained that we share a mutual great-great-great-great grandmother called Temperance Agombar who married our mutual great-great-great-great grandfather James Arrowsmith. They had a son called Wiliam Arrowsmith from whom Norman Burland is descended, and they had a daughter, his sister Sarah Arrowsmith who was my 4x great-grandmother. Sarah Arrowsmith married Benjamin Woolf, and together they had a daughter called Amelia Woolf, who married Hyam Isaacs. As you know, they then had several children and they all got baptized in 1814. So it seems that I have a direct DNA link to Amelia Woolf and Hyam Isaacs the apostate, which has come as something of a surprise. I also have DNA matches to descendants of Sarah Gable. So it would appear that my 3 x great-grandfather James Isaacs must have been the son of Hyam and Amelia Isaacs. The confusion in all of this is the order of removal, which clearly refers to the family of James Isaacs and Sarah Gable. The document mentions their children James 10, Sarah 8, (my 2 x grandmother), Henry, William, Sophia, Samuel. It then goes on to say that a "child James, 11, was born before marriage by his present wife..." I find it strange that it refers to son "James, 10", and then below it states "James, 11". Could this mean that James senior had another child called James born out of wedlock, by someone called Catherine, hence the mother, Catherine, refers to the name of the mother of that child? Other than that, I've no idea what the referral to Catherine can mean, now that I've established by a confirmed DNA link that Amelia Woolf was my 3 x great-grandmother. Many questions have been answered by this DNA match, but it still requires further research to discover the riddle of James Isaacs and "Catherine". Amelia would have been 41 years of age when James was born and 44 years old when his sister Rosetta was born, which I think was probably unusual to have children at that age in those days... I'd be interested to know what you think of all this!
Susan

[phillip]

Hi Susan
I am pleased that you made the DNA contact with another researcher who shares ancestors with you. However, I have concerns about the link you are making with Hyam Isaacs and Amelia Woolf. They are still alive in 1841- see 1841 Census Grosvenor Square Heavitree Devon ( I will supply the reference number in a later post)
HYAM ISAACS 60 Independent Not born in county
AMELIA ISAACS 57 not born in county
BENJAMIN ISAACS 16 Not born in county
ELIZABETH ISAACS 28 Independent Not born in county

Hyam died in 1847. He was never a green grocer. See #1 and later ones of this thread.

In addition, your Hyam Isaacs was a green grocer and had a son James born in Rosemary Lane in 1825. I think there is only 1 James and the Settlement order giving a James age 11 is an error.

Further, the Settlement Order states Catherine and not Amelia is the mother of James and there is the brother of James called Hy. probably Henry based on the later marriage records. On his marriage James says his father was Hyam Isaacs Green grocer.

If these sources are ignored then we would be saying that James had a mother called Catherine who was either divorced/separated/James born illegitimate from Hyam Isaacs the apostate but if so that doesn't stack up with the Synagogue Marriage of Hyam =Amelia Woolf and the later baptisms. Who was Henry/Hy the brother of James? Why does James say his father was a Green grocer and the other siblings say the same?

You would be talking about Hyam Isaacs the apostate having a second family all born illegitimate because he was still with his wife Amelia. In addition, we would be saying that Hyam Isaacs apostate was a green grocer, glass cutter, inventor, preacher. The data doesn't stack up with the James Isaacs father Hyam Isaacs green grocer with brother Hy probably Henry plus the other siblings.

What evidence does the researcher linked to your DNA have for thinking Hyam Isaacs apostate is the father of James bearing in mind the points I am making?

I think you need to take a close and hard look at the current evidence for James Isaacs bearing in mind the Settlement Order and the brother plus the marriage of James where he says his father was a green grocer.

The only Jew who had a wife Catherine and was a green grocer was Hyam Isaacs who died in 1849 unless you speculate that he was a convert.
There are still many variables which concern me regarding James Isaacs and you need to answer each of the key points regarding him, his birth in Rosemary Lane circa 1825,his mother Catherine,father a green grocer, brother Hy possibly Henry.

Currently there is no evidence at all to connect James to Hyam Isaacs=Amelia Woolf in fact directly the opposite.

I have been down this route myself when I first began my research and as my distant cousins reminded me I had to look at the data and look carefully at the evidence we had in documents.

[phillip]

Alma/Susan
I have just noted 2 Baptisms Church of England London which may or may not be relevant to James Isaacs Coachman=Sarah Gable.
Baptism JANE ISAACS born January 26,1863 Baptised February 22 1874 Parents JAMES/SARAH ISAACS-James Isaacs COACHMAN 56 ? Street Brick lane -St Mary Haggertson Hackney

JAMES ISAAC Born 14 May 1846 Baptised 5 June 1846 Parents JAMES/SARAH ISAAC Church Lane- JAMES ISAAC CAB DRIVER Tower Hamlets St. Mary Whitechapel

[almach]

Hi Susan,

Like Phillip I too have my doubts re: Hyram Isaacs and Amelia Woolf being your ancestors, my reasons are the same as Phillips.
James Isaacs describes his father as a greengrocer on his marriage certificate. The removal order states James' mother is Catherine; Hyam Isaacs the greengrocer was married to Catherine Levy.

The other Hyam isn't a greengrocer, his wife is Amelia not Catherine and there's no evidence he had a son named James.

Both Phillip and I are trying to help you establish your ancestral line, and don't want you to attach the wrong folks. If this was my family history I'd have grave doubts that Hyam and Amelia were my ancestors as there's no evidence to connect them to James Isaacs.

[almach]

Alma/Susan
I have just noted 2 Baptisms Church of England London which may or may not be relevant to James Isaacs Coachman=Sarah Gable.
Baptism JANE ISAACS born January 26,1863 Baptised February 22 1874 Parents JAMES/SARAH ISAACS-James Isaacs COACHMAN 56 ? Street Brick lane -St Mary Haggertson Hackney

JAMES ISAAC Born 14 May 1846 Baptised 5 June 1846 Parents JAMES/SARAH ISAAC Church Lane- JAMES ISAAC CAB DRIVER Tower Hamlets St. Mary Whitechapel

Hi Phillip, they do seem likely to be James Isaacs the coachman's children, don't they? I wish I could make out the street name on Janes baptism, it looks like Slater St but that street doesn't seem to exist.

This is Jane's birth registration from the GRO, it fits with a birth date of January 1863.
ISAACS, JANE GABLE
GRO Reference: 1863 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 350

There's no birth registration for James Isaacs with MMN Gable, nor is there a registration for James Gable MMN Gable. However, there is a registration which fits with James' birth date: James Isaacs MMN Isaacs.
ISAACS, JAMES ISAACS
GRO Reference: 1846 J Quarter in THE WHITE CHAPEL UNION Volume 02 Page 609

[almach]

Alma and Susan,
I have re-looked again on the Census for James Isaacs b 1825 + 5years and can see no person even with Ancestry.Co search options post 1851. The same applies to individuals named Isaac Isaacs.
There is 1 family tree which has a James Isaacs death March qtr 1885 age 59 Kensington 1a 97 with links to Sarah Gable.
Looking on Free BMD there are only a handful of James Isaacs deaths in the London area post 1857 when he is aged 32 on the Order of Removal and recorded ages from 1867 don't indicate any likely person until 1885.
Is he using another first name for the census?

Have I missed data?

No Phillip, I don't think you've missed any data, I too have searched for James in the census after 1851 and didn't find him, Sarah or the children. I looked at Ancestry, FMP and The Genealogist. It's very frustrating. I even did a family search which can be done on The Genealogist but that didn't throw up any likely candidates.

[phillip]

Hi Alma
You have been very clear and helpful in all your posts and many thanks for all your help. I totally agree with your #86 comments to Susan. We both know it can be an easy solution to adopt a 'best fit' on family trees and your warning is spot on.
With regard to James Isaacs coachman in 1857 and 1863 like you I can't work out how he became a fishmonger nor where he is in the census. Do you think they are in the workhouse which is why we can't find the family together?

We also don't know who Hy.the brother is - it might be Hyam or Henry. There is no reference to James father in the Order of Settlement with an implication that he maybe dead by 1857. Why James doesn't know exactly where his mother lives is another puzzle unless he is trying to cover up addresses to prevent his removal.

In my mind there are too many variables in this line and there is no proof that Hyam Isaacs=Catherine Levy the Jewish line are the parents of James beyond commonality of names.

The DNA Test Susan has done which gives her and her father Jewish roots needs a paper trail if possible. I have my own DNA test but already had a detailed paper trail on my Jewish lines and had made contact with distant cousins who had family trees and other records which confirmed our data. Synagogue records, BMD Certificates,wills, photos, portraits etc all confirmed the data. In the case of Susan these are not present other than possibilities.

However, the Isaacs-Gable-Pogson et al lines all associate based on marriage records. Are we missing something?

Many thanks for supporting the research into this puzzle.

Ps My father said our roots were Irish and I spent 30+ years ago trying to search for the data. It never existed! My roots are Welsh from Monmouth- my lines go back a very long time and I have Jewish lines plus English when they married to each other all on my paternal line. This taught me a hard lesson to take family stories with a very open mind.

[phillip]

Hi Alma
Here is another puzzle to solve- the Jane Isacs with parents James/Sarah Isaacs born 1863. She married 16 Oct 1881 Parish Church Bethnal Green to William George Writer 20 Bachelor Beer maker 7 George Gardens -father Thomas J Writer Beer house keeper

Jane Isaacs Spinster 18 25 C.....? Street -father James Isaacs (deceased) CABDRIVER

Witnesses- William George;Eliza George

This James Isaacs Coachman/Cab driver is not a Fishmonger. Is he a different James Isaacs?

This is another Bethnal Green link to Isaacs line but which one is the right one?