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  1. #61

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    Hi Alma
    The errors were all mine and I only spotted them this am so please don't think it was you. I think between us we have helped Susan and others look closely at the current data. Thank you for doing the look ups and also your kind comments. I am always happy to help other researchers if I can not least because of the help I received from others on this site in the early days.
    Best wishes.

    Ps I would recommend those looking at our posts to keep an open mind about the Hyam Isaacs line being Jewish until more data emerges. The line may or may not be Jewish and names such as Hyam and Isaacs do not necessarily equate with Jewish origin.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  2. #62

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    Hi Alma
    Having said that I had come to the end of the searches on Hyam Isaacs I remembered that James Isaacs gave his place of birth as Rosemary Lane on the Settlement Order. In addition, #54 we were struggling to work out the first name of the informant on the Death Certificate for Hyam Isaacs died 1849. The informant gave 27 Tenter Street as an address.

    I looked on Synagogue Scribes and found 2 entries which maybe very relevant to identifying Hyam Isaacs died 1849. The first is HSM 255 Michael Isaacs Rosemary Lane Dec 4 1836 father's Hebrew name Hayim =Leah Myers.

    The other record looks to me to be the informant on the 1849 Death Certificate- HSM 257 ZOSE Isaacs Hebrew name Eleazer Zesman March 30 1837 father's Hebrew name Mr Hayim Rosemary Lane =Rachel ABRAHAMS- father's Hebrew name Abraham our Father

    This term 'Abraham our father' for Rachel signifies she was a convert to the Jewish religion/customs. This is a known term and can be seen on various other Jewish marriage records of the time.

    ZOUSE Isaacs appears in the 1854 London Electoral Register 10 Tenter Street Tower Hamlets.

    Nb There is 1 Ancestry Co.family tree which has Zose aka Zoesman as the son of Hyam Isaacs =Amelia Wollf. However, as we know this Hyam died Exeter in 1847 whereas the death certificate for Hyam Isaacs 1849 is for a different individual.

    What do you think about the Zose first name for the 1849 death certificate. If this Zose is connected to the Hyam Isaacs with children James et al and if Zose is a son then he is a Jew.

    What is needed is confirmation that Zose is related to Hyam Isaacs died 1849 and of more importance is he a sibling of James Isaacs et al?

    Your thoughts appreciated.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  3. #63

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    The other record looks to me to be the informant on the 1849 Death Certificate- HSM 257 ZOSE Isaacs Hebrew name Eleazer Zesman March 30 1837 father's Hebrew name Mr Hayim Rosemary Lane =Rachel ABRAHAMS- father's Hebrew name Abraham our Father

    This term 'Abraham our father' for Rachel signifies she was a convert to the Jewish religion/customs. This is a known term and can be seen on various other Jewish marriage records of the time.

    ZOUSE Isaacs appears in the 1854 London Electoral Register 10 Tenter Street Tower Hamlets.
    Hi Phillip, this 1851 census seems to be Zose Isaacs. This is how Ancestry have transcribed it.

    10, Tenter St, Christchurch Spitalfields. HO107; Piece: 1543; Folio: 682; Page: 5
    Luice [sic] born St George East, his wife and all children born Spitalfields
    Luice Isaacs 36, general dealer
    Rachael Isaacs 34, general dealer
    Elizabeth Isaacs 16,
    Nathan Isaacs 14
    Caroline Isaacs 12, umbrella maker
    John Isaacs 10,
    Adelaide Isaacs 9
    Savis [sic[ possibly Lewis Isaacs 6
    Flora Isaacs 5
    Nancy Isaacs 4
    Myam Isaacs 1
    Charlotte Lazarus 35nk
    Alma

  4. #64

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    1861, 10. Tenter St. RG 9; Piece: 266; Folio: 168; Page: 5;
    All born Spitalfields.
    Ebenezer Isaacs 47, general dealer
    Louisa Isaacs 44, general dealer
    Elizabeth Isaacs 27, ladies hairdresser
    Caroline Isaacs 23, umbrella and parasol maker
    Adelaide Isaacs 19, tailoress
    Lewis Isaacs 17, tailors cutter out
    Bloomer Isaacs 14,
    Nancy Isaacs 13
    Hyam Isaacs 11
    Henry Isaacs 9
    Jacob Isaacs 21. cigar maker

    I wonder if this is the same family in 1871, if so Zose (1851) Ebenezer (1861) is now Samuel! And some ages don't correspond to 1861.
    42, Petticoat Lane, RG10; Piece: 412; Folio: 9; Page: 12;
    Samuel born St George in the East, his wife and children all Spitalfields. All general dealers.

    Samuel Isaacs 60
    Louisa Isaacs 58
    Adelaide Isaacs 28
    Nancy Isaacs 22
    Bloomer Isaacs 20
    Hyam Isaacs 18
    Henry Isaacs 16

    For 1841 see #54
    Alma

  5. #65

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    What do you think about the Zose first name for the 1849 death certificate. If this Zose is connected to the Hyam Isaacs with children James et al and if Zose is a son then he is a Jew.
    Hi Phillip, I think it most likely that Zose is the name on Hyam Isaacs death certificate (1849). I agree with you, he may or may not be a sibling of James as that is unproven for now.
    Alma

  6. #66

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    Dear Alma and Philip,
    Thank you for all the information you’ve provided since I last logged on. I wish I had more time to devote to researching this!

    Hyam Isaacs (greengrocer) was apparently not dead pre-1837 records, as he is recorded on the marriage certificates of Betsey, James and Rosetta circa 1843 as “greengrocer”. If he were already dead I think he would probably be recorded as “deceased”… wouldn’t he? There was a Hyam Isaacs Greengrocer who died of paralysis and dropsy in 1849 and I can find no further record of him in later records, this must be the same death certificate that you referred to. Having said that, James Isaacs got married a few months later to Sarah Gable and his father is not recorded as being “deceased”, so either Hyam who died in 1849 was not the father of James, Betsey, Rosetta et al, or the logic I applied to the status on the marriage certificate is incorrect.

    On the 1841 census there is a Hyam Isaacs aged 70 with a wife Catherine Isaacs who is 20 years his junior. They have children listed as Betsey 18, Isaac 16, Rosa 11 and Elizabeth 8 and were living in Russell Court, Whitechapel. The names and ages of the children are extraordinarily close to the ones I’m searching for, but the birth dates don’t tally up exactly. Could this be due to inaccuracies in the recording of names and dates in those dates? My great-great-grandfather James Isaacs had sisters called Betsey, Rosetta (Rosa?) and Elizabeth. But there is no mention of a James on this census, only an Isaac who would have been roughly the same age as James… is it possible that my ancestor James was called Isaac at birth but changed his name or used a middle name in preference of his first name? However, in the same year, there was a record in the census of a James Isaacs and an Elizabeth Isaacs recorded as living with a Mary Isaacs in St. Marylebone. I had assumed this to be my great-great-great grandfather, but perhaps it was not after all….

    Also it would appear from the 1841 census that Hyam Isaacs had these children very late in his life, with a wife 20 years younger than him. If he had converted to Christianity before they were born they would automatically have been Christian from birth and would not need to have been baptised, hence no records of their baptisms. It’s possible that he previously had a family with a first wife, as the eldest of the James Isaacs’ siblings that I can find, Betsey, was born in 1823 when Hyam would have been 48 years of age, which particularly in those times, would have been positively ancient for having a first child.

    In another person’s family tree I discovered there was a Francis Isaacs who married Henry Common in Shoreditch in 1843, the same year that James’ sister Betsey Isaacs got married. Francis’ father is named as Hyam Isaacs, Fishmonger, which is strange. If Betsey and Frances Isaacs both had the same father, then why would he be referred to as a Greengrocer on one marriage certificate and as a Fishmonger on another? Maybe two different Hyam Isaacs?. However, interestingly, one of the witnesses to Francis Isaacs and Henry Common’s marriage is a Sophia Isaacs. On Betsey Isaacs’ marriage certificate, the witnesses were…. Henry Common and Sophia Isaacs, so it seems they were all related somehow.

    I’ve recently found myself to have 5% European Jewish DNA that I never knew about, and my father has 12%. We’ve long believed that our family must be a little bit Jewish and now it’s been proved! We’ve traced most of our other family lines a long way back and can find no other evidence of any other ancestors that could have been Jewish in our family history so we are fairly certain that Hyam Isaacs and his wife must have been our Jewish ancestors. The only other possibility is my 4 x great-grandfather Saul Lewis who could have been born circa 1750 - 1770 and his son Joseph Henry Lewis born 1788, they also lived around the Spitalfields area. If you happen to have any knowledge of Jewish Lewis’s living in the area at that time, please let me know.

    Out of interest, I’m presently only registered on the Ancestry.com website and like you, find other people’s family trees very confusing and inaccurate. Can you recommend another site which might provide more information than that provided on Ancestry.com? Due to lack of recorded evidence I find myself thinking that “this could be this” or “that could be that.” (if you know what I mean). I don’t want supposition, I really want to know the truth!

    Many thanks for your time. Susan

  7. #67

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    Thank you Alma for helping with the census data. The name Zoesman can also be Soesman and may other variations.It was common for Jews to change their first and last names and within my own family lines I have examples of this later in life.If you look on Synagogue Scribes records you will see the original Hebrew names and what you have are people Anglicising their names e.g. Baruch becomes Henry. In addition, the addition of a middle or even the first name of a dead parent was used and this is also a feature of my lines.

    Susan- with regard to the addition of deceased on the section relation to the father on a marriage certificate this varied considerably. I hold over 150 GRO Records and among the Marriage records I have several where the father has no reference to being deceased but in fact was already dead. As I said in earlier posts you can't make assumptions on the data.

    With regard to the 1841 Census ages of persons over 15 years were rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5 e.g. 19 years became 15, 22 down to 20 etc. However, this was not consistent by the enumerator nor did many people know accurately how old they were. It also depended on who the informer was on the census return.

    With regard to baptisms not all would have their children baptised but many would particularly if a conversion by a parent had occurred. On another point, the wife of Zoes Isaacs given as Rachel Abrahams on the Synagogue Marriage Record is not her original name. This is an 'adopted' Hebrew name due to her conversion. Similarly, many Jews who settled in Israel changed their names to Hebrew names often patronymic.

    On the subject of other sites which might provide more information the issue remains that the quality of individuals family trees is dependent on the accuracy of the data these people submit. There are some very good family trees on line but many are poor quality with inaccurate and unsupported data.

    I can't speak on behalf of others but having started 20 years ago with no idea that my immediate line was Jewish I have been very fortunate finding cousins who have helped us develop very accurate data on our lines based on wide ranging records world wide and supported by original records we could verify. This has taken a long time.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  8. #68

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    Alma and Susan
    I had forgotten the earlier thread Isaacs-Garcia-Levy where some data on Zoesman Isaacs was posted by me- see #49-50 11.5.2004

    Susan- You mention the Lewis surname in your last post. There are many Lewis Jewish lines and I have these among my own families. In our case Lewis was changed from Levy and we have at least one detailed account of how the line tried to cover up their Jewish roots by pretending to be Welsh and even adopting a Welsh family crest.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  9. #69

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    Susan
    Is this 'your' Joseph Henry Lewis 2nd marriage- Parish Church Christchurch Middlesex
    Nov 18 1853
    Joseph Henry Lewis 64 widower Cordwainer 4 Green? Street father Saul Lewis Corwainer
    Caroline Jane LEWIN 37 Spinster (it looks as if widow may have also been written) 6 George Street father John Lewin Watchmaker
    Witnesses Robert Savage;Jonathan Root

    Cordwainer is a shoe or boot maker

    Nb Both Lewis and Lewin can be Jewish surnames but this does not mean they are.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

  10. #70

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    Hi Alma
    I can't locate the marriage of Henry Isaacs=Ann Elizabeth Peach in 1859 on Ancestry.Co London Marriages. Did you find them on the site and if so would you mind posting the witnesses. I can see Free BMD Marriage Index Henry Isaacs =Ann Elizabeth Peach March qtr 1859 Strand 1b 496- your post #45 of this thread.

    Susan- the only confirmed data we have regarding James Isaacs is his Settlement Order. His mother is Catherine and his brother Hy - probably Henry -see #28 of this thread. Alma found a Henry Isaacs at 8 Gt Hermitage Wapping and it looks very likely to James brother. If so, this Henry Isaacs green grocer was born circa 1812-1815 based on his marriage and 1861 census age of 49.
    James was born in 1825 based on the Settlement Order so Henry would be an older brother.

    Given that Catherine and Henry are known relatives of James whereas the others are not until confirmed it would make sense to consider this line.

    We also know that Zoes Isaacs appears to be a relative of the Hyam Isaacs who died in 1849. Often if the informant is a son or daughter or other relative they are recorded as such but this does not always apply on Death Certificates. The Catherine Isaacs mother of James and Henry death certificate may have the informant who is a relative but this is not certain.

    What I am trying to do to help is to map out what are confirmed data from the possibilities.
    Phillip-Jewish,British Ancestry

    "The only true dead are those who have been forgotten"

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