Isaacs Asher/Hyam/Benjamin = Charles Sinclair

[phillip]

Susan
From memory we posted on the Synagogue Scribes website records for the Great Synagogue Records which showed GSM102/48 the marriage of Hyam Isaacs to Catherine Levy ( Hebrew name Trynia) her father's Hebrew name Leib SGL (the initials SGL are noted on Synagogue Scribes but I would need to look these up).

In addition, on JewishGen UK Data base 1851 Anglo Jewry data base Zusman Lazarus(Eliezer) Isaacs ID 10639 records his father Hayim but no mother recorded. See all the listed children of Zusman.

There are Ancestry.Co public family trees which have these lines as you already know. However,what is needed is to confirm that the data posted on these trees is accurate. One way is to look at the siblings of Zoesman/Zusman and identify if possible the name of their father when they married and what his trade was.This would give you a chance to confirm the data related to Hyam aka Hayim and also see if it also linked back to the GSM102/48 Marriage.

Synagogue Scribes data base is your best chance of researching these links but there are very few early records on the lines in existence unless a Jewish family is well known and has family trees.

It is possible that there are further records on Hayim aka Hyam Isaacs and Catherine Levy held in the Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain library -see Family trees index online but these trees mostly contain surnames and not first names and a visit to research these trees would be needed.

Similarly, the Society of Genealogists in London also hold the Anglo Jewish collections- Hyamson and Collyer-Fergusson collections which have hundreds of family trees- again many relate to known Jewish families including my own lines. I have visited the centre on several occasions and the documents can be invaluable because they are written in Hebrew and English.

[phillip]

The initials SGL for Leib SGL Father of Hayim Isaacs =Catherine Levy. See Synagogue Scribes 'Understanding Individual Detail'- Segan Leviyah (Levite) meaning 'assistant Levite or attendant Levite' from the Levi tribe.
See references on line to the religious duties of the Levi.

[SusanLorraine]

Dear Phillip, gosh thank you for that information, it's very interesting. Do you know where I might find any more information about Catherine Levy's family.... who her mother was, where Catherine was born, where her parents came from? It's a pity the marriage document doesn't provide more information. Also on the Hyam Isaacs line, his father is noted as Isaac Pressburg, which I understand to be Isaac from Pressburg (now Bratislava). Again, it would be good to find out who Hyam Isaacs' mother was, when his father came to England, or indeed if both parents came here together from Pressburg. I don't know where to begin. Records pre-1841 census are so scarce I imagine many people hit a brick wall around the late 1700's so don't expect to be able to find out much more.

[phillip]

Hi Susan
The questions you ask about tracing further back the Isaacs/Levy lines are very sound. The problem facing any of us who have Jewish ancestors is the name changes on arrival in the UK, the use of tribal names and patronomymic names among other variations. As you may know most Jews did not have surnames until they were imposed upon them - see online history of Jewish last names.

Any early records on the UK Jewish families are very rare and usually related to well known Jewish families. This means tracing them back pre UK Settlement is either very difficult or not possible. In their original country the individuals either used local names- Russian, Polish, German etc or place names or other names including first names. For example, in my own lines I have Russian, German and Dutch names which bear no relationship to the names adopted on arrival in the UK.

JewishGen have data bases which focus on family and place names for specific regions such as Poland. You can check the various last name spellings of various families but this is not an easy task given the Russian/Polish spellings.

In the case of Hyam and Catherine they are Ashkenazi Jews based on the Great Synagogue Marriage record and you have Bratislava as a region but we don't know what names were used by the family or individual when they lived in the area. It is very likely that you will never know because records would not exist.

Take a look on JewishGen for the Hungarian region and see what data is held.

[phillip]

Susan
If you look on JewishGen Hungary Data base for Pressburg last name you will see various entries for individuals. There is also the Family Tree of the Jewish People for Hungary/Slovakia/Croatia. The spelling of Pressburg varies-Prezburg/Pressburg/Presburg. Whether or not any of the individuals relates to Hyam/Hayim requires detailed research.

You might also want to look at the article in Wikepidia on the Jews of Hungary...see in particular the reigns of Maria Theresa (1740-1790), Joseph 11 (1780-1790)and the persecution of the Hungarian Jews..."The largest Jewish community, numbering 770 persons, was that of Pressburg (Bratislava). Most of the Jews engaged in commerce or industries, most being merchant, traders or shopkeeper...". The article also identified the percentage of Jews who settled in Hungary based on their place of origin e.g. Poland etc

These Jews would be Yiddish and national speakers depending on where they originated from.

[phillip]

See also JewishGen Hungary Data base under Isaacs last name. There are a few entries including Jacobus Isaacs 1774 location including district. The note by his name reads Isaacs maybe his patronym or surname.

As previously posted the use of patronymic last names by Jews makes it difficult to make later associations to lines based on adopted surnames.

[phillip]

Susan
These are 'long shots' but the father of Catherine Levy is Leib which in Yiddish is Lion aka Lyon and Hebrew Yehuda or Judah. This would mean you looking for Lion/Lyon or Judah Levi/Levy.
If you look on JewishGen UK Data base you will see records for Judah Levy Petticoat Lane 1807;Judah Levy Merchant Haydon Yard Minories 1766-1771; Judah Levy 24 Piccadilly 1783 and later Judah Levy 1814 Houndsditch with Lion Levy son.
There is also Lion/Lyon Levy salesman 9 Rosemary Lane 1802.

Nb The Judah Levy maybe one in the same or different individuals.

If you look on Synagogue Scribes Will Extracts NA 566 and 566a there is Lyon Levy probate 1807 with wife Rhina.

As I said these are all 'long shots' who may or may not be relevant to Catherine Levy but they give you a chance of researching further to see if family trees have these individuals which you maybe able to trace further.

[phillip]

This post is in response to another researcher who descends from Hyam Isaacs 1780-1847-Amelia Woolf through their son George Christian Isaacs. The request is for further data and help identifying the 'unknown' children of Hyam and Amelia.

In this thread #1 5 children were originally identified including reference to some of their later baptisms in London including the conversion of their parents to Christianity. Further posts identified other possible Isaacs but data was often limited.

Importantly, the researcher sent me an article from Woolmer's Exeter and Plymouth Gazette Saturday 6 March, 1830 in which Hyam Isaacs 'a converted Jew' of the parish of St.Thomas had taken his son Isaac Isaacs to court for assault and threatening behaviour. Isaac had asked his father for money but this had been refused and Isaac had assaulted his father. Isaac was found guilty but refused to pay any costs and was abusive to the judge.
This appears to be Isaac Isaacs born 1809 and baptised in 1814 in London.

Hyam in his testimony said that he had 9 children. He never named them but this appears to be the first instance of having proof that there were more children beyond those originally identified in #1 of this thread.

The problem is that when looking at Ancestry.Co public family trees the data on each child is often limited or incorrect and in some a second marriage by Hyam has been added which is not substantiated by any records beyond similarity with names.

Children's names including:
Elizabeth b 1807-1841
Isaac b 1809
Chapman b 1812
George b 1814
Zoseman 1815-1875
Betsy 1816-Charles Stephens marriage 1843
Frances 1817-1880 =Henry Common
Benjamin 1825/26=Eliza Paterson 1843 marriage
Rosetta 1825 =Thomas Watling 1843

Previous posts have looked at some of the above names but any help substantiating the various lines would be welcome.

I have no known links to any of the lines but any help for the researcher would be appreciated.

If anyone can post the newspaper extract regarding Hyam Isaacs and his son Isaac this would help others with the same lines.

[almach]

Hi Phillip,

I received a PM from a member with the information from Woolmers Gazette, I tried to reply but his inbox was full.

Here's some info I found which may be useful. I haven't searched further as I'm not feeling well.

Exeter and Plymouth Gazette 30 July 1836

Moses Isaacs age 17, indicted for stealing on 19 July in a stage wagon on Collumpton Road 17s 2/1d, prisoner is the son of a converted Jew of Exeter. The jury found hin guilty, Isaacs claimed to have been deserted by his parents who were living like gentlefolks, said it would be much better for him if he could be transported. He was sentenced to imprisonment for two years and hard labour, Isaacs appeared to be disappointed on hearing his sentence.

Exeter and Plymouth Gazette 23 July 1836

Moses Isaacs son of a converted Jew in St Thomas's near this city committed for trial for robbing a fellow passenger in a stage wagon from Cullompton to Exeter. The Jew confessed and said he did it to be provided for as his parents had turned him adrift, and he had run away from his apprenticeship, and would not return to his master.

Sherborne Mercury 08 July 1839 reported

Moses Isaacs was transported for seven years

Western Times 06 July 1839

Moses Isaacs charged with receiving a plate knowing it to be stolen, sentenced to seven years of transportation. Isaacs seems to be a very hardened offender.

[phillip]

Many thanks Alma for the useful information. It is proving difficult to piece existing data together in order to identify each of the Hyam Isaacs children.
I do hope you are feeling better. Take care.