William SERLE b btw 1785 and 1788

[Geoff1959]

Hi can anyone help with info on William SERLE
b btw 1785 and 1788 in Devonport
I have found a possible marriage to Mary WHITAKER 20 Jan 1805 St. George East Stonehouse
If this is correct then it looks like there were 4 children:-
William b c1812 Devonport
George b c1821 Stoke Damerel
Lavinia b 1824 Devonport
Alfred b 1814 Kingsand

The earliest census being 1841 there is little evidence that ties them all together.
I know geographically all the places are close together and that this is all possible but it would be good to have some more facts. Perhaps this is as good as it gets?
The main evidence at the moment is baptism records but without other evidence how can we be sure its the same people? What is the best way of getting more substantial evidence on this?

From probate it seems that William Snr was a bootmaker and had a son William Jnr whom he trained and took over the bussiness as one census shows him as "retired bootmaker"

I'm looking for a baptism for Willam SERLE (snr)
Also any details of Williams parents, birth, baptism, marriage ect (DFHS has nothing that seems to fit)

There is a suggestion that Mary Whitaker's parents were William Whitaker and Mary Ellams from a marriage at Plymouth Charles in 1780. (From Devon marriages DFHS)


Any help or pointers much appreciated as i have now found that "wall".

[janbooth]

I think you have to be careful when attributing the marriage at East Stonehouse to your William SERLE as there is a William SEARLE married to a Mary having children at East Stonehouse who is a Seaman/Mariner.

Alfred & Lavinia SERLE were baptised on the same day, 5 June 1825, at Wesleyan Chapel, Morice Street, Devonport, parents William & Mary SERLE, Shoemaker. Alfred was born on 5 December 1815, Lavinia on 29 September 1824 (images available to view on Ancestry).

What may prove relevant in your search for William snr's birth/baptism, especially given that he also named a son George, is another baptism at the Wesleyan chapel, Morice Street on 3 April 1826, born 2 February 1826, of a George SERLE son of Edward & Grace SERLE, Mason. Could Edward & your William be related in some way??

Have you found William snr in the 1841 census and if so can you give me the census reference, please, as I have so far been unable to find him or the children.

FindmyPast, which is a pay per view site, has the parish register images for many places in Devon so it could be worth your while doing some free searches there to see if any are applicable to your research. William's actual burial record is on there and there is one for a Mary SEARLE in 1827 which may be relevant to you. Have you found the baptismal records of William jnr & George, as I have so far been unsuccessful in finding them.

I think I would also obtain a copy of William snr's Will as if you are lucky it might just give you some clues as to family members other than his children.

Janet

[Geoff1959]

Hi Janet,
Thank you for your reply. There is a great deal of "muddy water" around these various SERLE's.
The only William Serle that I can find in the 1841 census is the one I think that you referred to earlier married to Grace [HO 107/273/3]
The earliest census that I think we have my William on is the 1851 [HO 107/1881] He is shown with son George living at 32 Mount Street. His wife (believed to be Mary Whitaker) is not shown but I have info that suggests a death of [Mary SERLE] Q1 1852 Stoke Damerel.
The 1861 census [RG 9/1449] is the first that we see William (snr) William (jnr) and Louisa Serle (nee PEARCE) all together.
William (snr) died 8 Aug 1862 Devonport and there is an entry in England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966, 1973-1995 that leave his estate to his son. I'll look for Baptism's for William (jnr) and George.
If Lavinia is a pointer then the 1st place to look would be the Wesleyan Chapel Morice street. Thanks once again.

[helachau]

Find My Past has an 1851 Census record for
William Seale, 62, Cordwainer
George Seale, 28, Labourer

Both born Devonport, address 31 Mount Street. The original is clearly Seale
Reference HO107 1881 242 23

Is this the 1851 record you have identified at #3.

Reference H

[janbooth]

The National Probate Calendar record does not necessarily mean that William snr left his estate totally to his son William, just that William jnr was granted Administration of William snr's estate, probably because he was named as the Executor of the Will.

A Lavinia SEARLE was buried at Stoke Damarel in 1827, aged 3. There is also a burial for a Mary SEARLE at Stoke Damarel in 1827, aged 40. FindmyPast has the parish register entries for both burials. The death registration for Mary SERLE in 1852 is unlikely to be that of William snr's wife as he is shown as a Widower in the 1851 census record. Looking further into this death, the burial record shows that she is a Mary Ann SERLE, aged 2. Another possibility is that of a burial in 1847 at Stoke Damarel of a Mary SEARL, aged 76 but this is less likely as it would mean that she was 14 years older than William snr.

Janet

[Geoff1959]

Hi Janet,
I did take up the free trial on FMP and they have some interesting stuff that I have not seen anywhere else.
I would have expected DFHS to have all the parish recordsfor Devon but if they do hey dont seen to be available.
Yes I agree, I have been unhappy with Mary's death date. From what I found on FMP baptisms/marriage records/ wills ect there is documented proof of the links between William Serle (snr) William (jnr) Alfred, George and Lavinia.

Alfred SERLE is a key figure in the family tree. I have a baptism for him 6th Jun 1825 at Morice St, Wesleyan chapel which fits with all the others. There is alsoa death for Alfred 26th Nov 1888 in Mount street (from probate) again this fits.
I have a date of birth for him of 6th Dec 1815 but cannot seem to locate where I got this from, also have his place of birth as Kingsand. (which at the time was part of Devon). When brother William (1st born) was born in Devonport and so were George and Lavinia why was he born elsewhere?

There is definitly a marriage 20th Jan 1805 between a William serle and a Mary Whitaker in East Stonehose.
Any ideas on how I can investigate this to prove this is the marriage I am interested in?

I have found a marriage of a William Whitaker to a Mary ELLAMs 10 Jan 1780 in Plymouth Charles could this be Mary W's parents?
Other than that I have not found anything that takes the Serle line back any further.

Comments and ideas appreciated.


I

[janbooth]

Alfred's actual birth date is on his baptismal record and could be either 5th or 6th December 1815. I originally thought it was the 5th but, on looking more closely, it could well be the 6th - Ancestry have hedged their bets and they have his birth date down as both 5th and 6th December 1815. His actual burial record at Stoke Damarel, with his date of death, is also on FMP.

I think you have his place as birth from his census records which consistently show it as Kingsand. Interesting that his marriage record to Eliza PAINE in 1841 shows him as a Cordwainer also, whereas none of the subsequent census records do.

Looking for any children for the William SERLE who married Mary WHITAKER in January 1805 at East Stonehouse, there is the baptism at Stoke Damarel on 1 August 1805 of a William son of William & Mary SERLE - no occupation shown unfortunately and this William may have been buried in 1805 at Stoke Damarel. Will investigate some more.

Janet

[janbooth]

A few more thoughts:

I, too, can find no other likely marriage for your William SERLE snr other than the one in 1805 at East Stonehouse but unfortunately this is only a transcript and not the actual parish register image, so no other details. However, the burial record of Mary SERLE in 1827 gives an age of 40, therefore an approximate birthdate of 1787 and there is a baptism at Stoke Damarel on 18 September 1785 of a Mary daughter of William & Mary WHITAKER which would fit.

What is interesting, although the dates do not fit in very well, is an Apprenticeship record dated 1 June 1783 of a Wm SEARLE who was apprenticed to Wm HOLBERTON of Stoke Damerell, Cordwainer. So who is this William SEARLE and does he connect to your William in some way?? It is a bit of a coincidence, isn't it. There is a baptism at Stoke Damarel in 1753 of a William son of William & Thomasin SERLE but tying them all in datewise is somewhat difficult.

I think you may have to look at the actual parish register marriage record for William SERLE & Mary WHITAKER to see if any extra information is given, e.g. his profession, where he was from, any helpful witnesses, etc. and I think I would also purchase a copy of his actual Will which just may give some extra information. It is unusual, if William & Mary were married in 1805. not to find any baptisms other than those for Alfred born 1815 & Lavinia born 1824. We know from census & probate records that there were at least two other children namely William & George, so where were they baptised, and there may indeed have been others - perhaps the Will would clarify this.

Janet

[Geoff1959]

Hi Janet
I did find the baptism Mary Whitaker and am reasonably happy that she is the daughter of William Whitaker and Mary Ellams.
The burial record you have found is a much better one than I had [Q1 1852 Stoke Damerel] and this would also explain why she does not appear on any of the census records.
How do I go about getting a copy of William (Snr's) Will? Is this different from what is recorded in the Probate calendar?
I was under the impression that it only went to probate if there was no will or it was contested? The probate record only lists his son William (jnr)

As already stated William (Snr's) son Alfred is a "key figure" but whilst looking for info on him I have uncovered a bit of a problem.
Alfred john Serle who was my ggf I have born Dec 1843 in Stoke Damerel to parents Alfred Serle (William snr's son) and Eliza Paine.
I have found a baptism on FMP that is interesting and throws a spanner in the works.
Baptisms Stoke Damerel 1844 page 206 Alfred Serle born 19th November 1843 baptised 17th March 1844 parents William Serle & Mary. This cannot be William Serle & Mary Whitaker on 2 counts. Wew no believe that she died in 1827 and otherwise she would have been 60!! Interestingly William's profession is shown as a Cordwainer. Interested in your thoughts. I'm happy to send you my GEDCOM with living people removed for privacy if that would help? [email protected] if you would like to send me your e-mail address.

[Devonmade]

A william and Mary Serle had 3 children baptised in Rame
1808 Rame Mary SERLE William Mary
1808 Rame Ann SERLE William Mary
1810 Rame Henry SERLE William Mary

This on the Cornwall OPC site.