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  1. #11
    bettyespana
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    Quote Originally Posted by janbooth View Post
    Made a bit of a boob in my post 4, Betty. Joseph's parents should read James & Ann CLARK - brain not working properly again!!

    Following on from post 8. Sarah Ann CLARE baptised 15 October 1837 at Manchester Cathedral daughter of Eliza CLARE, Manchester, Spinster.

    25 December 1842 at Manchester Cathedral William Henry LIGHTFOOT, full age, bachelor, Porter, 7 Parker Street, no father mentioned & Eliza CLARE, full age, spinster, Parker Street, father James CLARE, Tailor. Eliza made her mark.

    22 September 1850 at Manchester Cathedral Peter CLARE, 26, bachelor, Mechanic, 60 Chester Street, father James CLARE, Tailor & Sarah MOUNTAIN, 24, spinster, 6 Joddrell Street, father Joseph MOUNTAIN, Seaman. Sarah made her mark.

    However, so far I have still been unable to find a burial for James CLARE - do you have his death record, Betty? Otherwise, we do not know when approximately he was born as I cannot find him on census records and his marriage record gives us no clue either.

    Janet
    Sorry Janet

    I haven't got his death record.The only thing I have is in my notes on James.Possibly death 1852 Manchester 8D 8923 BMD
    Betty

  2. #12
    janbooth
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    Betty,

    Given that your James CLARE named his first son Peter and that James was married in Grappenhall, have you considered a baptism at Grappenhall on 12 December 1790 of a James son of Peter CLARE, Blacksmith? Unless of course you know definitely that his father was a Joseph and he was born c1796.

    Janet

  3. #13
    bettyespana
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    Quote Originally Posted by janbooth View Post
    Betty,

    Given that your James CLARE named his first son Peter and that James was married in Grappenhall, have you considered a baptism at Grappenhall on 12 December 1790 of a James son of Peter CLARE, Blacksmith? Unless of course you know definitely that his father was a Joseph and he was born c1796.

    Janet
    Now you have got me going Janet because I really don't know!Can this one be tied up with Philip GeoffreyClare his other son & the other female children named previously.
    I have just been looking at Philips marriage cert to see if I could see anything that might give an extra clue i.e.witnesses but I don't think they help.The witness names were Joseph McCabe & mark of Isabella Hudson.
    Also meant to say earlier have you noticed the age difference in the ages of James & Alice? James I have 1795 & Alice c.1776.
    I think that age for Alice was worked out from the censuses.By the time she had Philip she would have been 50yrs of age!Not impossible but I would think highly improbable.

  4. #14
    Name well known on Brit-Gen
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    Quote Originally Posted by janbooth View Post
    Betty,

    Given that your James CLARE named his first son Peter and that James was married in Grappenhall, have you considered a baptism at Grappenhall on 12 December 1790 of a James son of Peter CLARE, Blacksmith? Unless of course you know definitely that his father was a Joseph and he was born c1796.Janet
    Too late to digest the body of this query however I know ( my late parents lived that way and I was asked to go 'rummagining' for CLARE ) there were CLARE's around Appleton / Stretton/Stockton Heath area. not too far from Grappenhall, however the researcher has since died and I do not know what happened to her research papers. Maybe North Ches Family History will know as Joan was their President.

    This may help https://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-02/1046460613

  5. #15
    bettyespana
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    Quote Originally Posted by bettyespana View Post
    Now you have got me going Janet because I really don't know!Can this one be tied up with Philip GeoffreyClare his other son & the other female children named previously.
    I have just been looking at Philips marriage cert to see if I could see anything that might give an extra clue i.e.witnesses but I don't think they help.The witness names were Joseph McCabe & mark of Isabella Hudson.
    Also meant to say earlier have you noticed the age difference in the ages of James & Alice? James I have 1795 & Alice c.1776.
    I think that age for Alice was worked out from the censuses.By the time she had Philip she would have been 50yrs of age!Not impossible but I would think highly improbable.
    I have had a quick look at the address you gave me re:Clares & initially I am thinking that there is no connection.However I will have a good look at it later. Thank you for your input on this brick wall!

  6. #16
    janbooth
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    I think the addresses given on the marriage records I have found all seem to tie in with the two census records, i.e. either Parker Street or 60 Chester Street. I have also found in both my own and other research that a lot of woman were still having children into their 50's, so maybe not so improbable. Unfortunately, because we have no census records or death record for James CLARE, we really have no idea when or where he was born, because his marriage record in 1817 gives us no clue except they were both supposedly of the parish. At first glance the witnesses on the marriage record do not appear to be of much help either. Looking at the census records, there is a family of THORNTONs in the 1841 census of Latchford, so presumably Samuel THORNTON, one of the witnesses, was living in Latchford at the time of the marriage of James & Alice.

    I am not sure that the death in 1852 is your James CLARE. Looking on the census records for a James CLARE living in Manchester in the 1851 does not bring up anyone with a birth date old enough to be married in 1817. The only way to totally eliminate him would be to purchase the death certificate.

    Not much help again, but will keep looking.

    Janet

  7. #17
    janbooth
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    Bit more background information on Eliza CLARE:

    1851 census of Hulme, Mancester:

    William H LIGHTFOOT Head Mar 30 Warehouseman in Corn Warehouse Yorkshire Halifax
    Eliza do Wife Mar 33 Cheshire High Leigh
    William H do Son 3 Lancashire Hulme
    Thomas do Son 1 do do
    Sarah Ann CLARE Stepdaughter 13 Cotton Power Loom Weaver do do
    Jane do do 10 do do

    Eliza is a widow by the 1891 census of Stretford.

    No sign of mother Alice living with her at any time after her marriage.

    And of Peter CLARE & wife Sarah:

    Born 27 Sep, bap 7 Dec 1851 James son of Peter & Sarah CLARE, Manchester, Mechanic
    Born 7 Dec 1854, bap 25 Feb 1855 Amelia daughter of Peter & Sarah CLARE, Manchester, Mechanic
    Born 24 Feb, bap 13 Dec 1857 Joseph son of Peter & Sarah CLARE, Manchester, Mechanic

    All at Manchester Cathedral

    Peter CLEARE & wife Sarah plus children are in the 1871 census of Chorlton on Medlock (RG10/3992, folio 48, page 45) and by the 1881 census of Hulme Sarah is shown as a widow.

    Still no definite sighting of Alice CLARE after the 1851 census.

    Janet

  8. #18
    janbooth
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    Daughter Susannah CLARE is living in Ancoats Manchester in the 1861 census (RG9/2930, folio 17, page 27) described as an unmarried Calico Weaver living at 23 Ward Street with daughter Susannah, aged 15 born Manchester.

    The reason I am trying to find Alice in any census records subsequent to the 1851, is that I have found a burial at Hulme St George of an Alice CLARE on 16 April 1854 (died 12 April of Natural Decay), aged 65, but she is shown as of Lymm. However, I cannot find an Alice CLARE living in Lymm in either the 1841/51 census. Have you found the death record of your Alice, Betty?

    Janet

  9. #19
    bettyespana
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    Quote Originally Posted by janbooth View Post
    Daughter Susannah CLARE is living in Ancoats Manchester in the 1861 census (RG9/2930, folio 17, page 27) described as an unmarried Calico Weaver living at 23 Ward Street with daughter Susannah, aged 15 born Manchester.

    The reason I am trying to find Alice in any census records subsequent to the 1851, is that I have found a burial at Hulme St George of an Alice CLARE on 16 April 1854 (died 12 April of Natural Decay), aged 65, but she is shown as of Lymm. However, I cannot find an Alice CLARE living in Lymm in either the 1841/51 census. Have you found the death record of your Alice, Betty?

    Janet
    Unfortunately I never found very much info for Alice so no I have not got a death record for her.I don't even have any idea who her parents were.The Hulme area of Manchester was also a registration district & I have an idea that Parker Street & Chester street may have been in the Hulme registration district.So it may be that the burial you have found is the Alice we are looking for.
    Betty

  10. #20
    bettyespana
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    Quote Originally Posted by bettyespana View Post
    Unfortunately I never found very much info for Alice so no I have not got a death record for her.I don't even have any idea who her parents were.The Hulme area of Manchester was also a registration district & I have an idea that Parker Street & Chester street may have been in the Hulme registration district.So it may be that the burial you have found is the Alice we are looking for.
    Betty
    Hi Janet,

    Just looking on F.S & found another Alice Clare in deaths & there is this one JAS qtr 1858 Reg.Chorlton 8C 334 17
    Chorlton is also Manchester & near to the Hulme area.
    I also looked up St Georges Hulme on Lancs Parish Reg & there are quite a few of births only listed for Clares but burials not listed.
    Betty

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