John (Jack) SHAW, Belfast

[onlyme]

Looking for any information on the family of John (Jack) SHAW MBE, electrician in the Belfast docks and Divisional Superintendant, St John's Ambulance Brigade, both in the early 1940's. Had a mother in Bangor with initial M but cannot find any info on either

[arthurk]

Have you looked at the Belfast City Council burial records at https://www.
belfastcity.gov.uk/community/burialrecords/burialrecords.aspx

It's free to search, but you can't order images for anything less than 75 years old, which may be a bit of a drawback.

Arthur

[onlyme]

Thanks Arthurk. Unfortunately he died in 1950/1 and I have a copy of his death certificate, a Belfast Gazette announcement in 1942 and the press death announcement . Perhaps if I go back and visit the Council offices I can find a gravestone with a useful inscription. What I have NOT got is a marriage or birth certificate or any idea where he came from. I have tried the St John's Ambulance Brigade (he was a Divisional Superintendent on the Belfast docks), and the Society of Saint John of Jerusalem (he was made a serving member). The former has simply sent me a couple of death announcements and the latter no reply.

[Pamelawagster]

Do you have DOB and wifes name?

[onlyme]

Do you have DOB and wifes name?

Thanks for the thought.
No to both. I have an age at death (which could make year of birth one of two years). The other problem is that he was probably born in Northern Ireland about 1898 and almost all records were destroyed in the big fire in about 1920. Yes, I know that the government has taken major steps to reconstitute records but the fire included not only state but also most church records. His name is all too common.
As for wife, only an initial, M. At the time of death his mother was living in Bangor (presumably Co Down) and was responsible for the newspaper entry; I have her single forename and have investigated that link, even speaking to a genealogist in Bangor whose grandmother had the same name!
Also investigated occupants of his house - M Shaw and someone who was probably a lodger; they had moved a year later. Records then were not so complete so haven't found her again at a different address.

[arthurk]

I've just had a quick look at the 1901 and 1911 censuses for a John Shaw born about the right time, with mother's name beginning "M". I only checked Co. Down, and found three contenders; as Belfast straddles the county boundary you would as a minimum need to check Co. Antrim as well, but the more counties you can check, the better.

These are the ones I found:
1901 & 1911 in Ballymacarn North - John (John R in 1901), 1 in 1901 & 11 in 1911, parents Andrew & Margaret (Presbyterian)
1901 & 1911 in Ormeau - John, 3 in 1901 & 14 in 1911, parents Andrew & Margaret (Presbyterian)
1901 in Backnamullagh - John, 2, parents John W & Margret (Methodist)

I didn't look any further for the third one in 1911. Anyway, notwithstanding the possible difficulty in differentiating between the first two families, is it possible to eliminate any of these from your enquiries? For example, do you know anything about his mother's age, or any siblings?

Another possible line of research might be to see if he left a will. According to the PRONI website, there's an index that can be consulted in their office - I don't know if they could do it for you, or if you'd need to hire a researcher. And since he apparently died before his mother, her death certificate and/or will might give useful clues as to other family members.

I don't know how urgent this research is, but if you can wait a little while, I believe some of the Northern Ireland BMD indexes will be going online some time this year, and that might make life quite a lot easier for those of us who don't live there.

Arthur

[Elwyn Soutter]

The other problem is that he was probably born in Northern Ireland about 1898 and almost all records were destroyed in the big fire in about 1920. Yes, I know that the government has taken major steps to reconstitute records but the fire included not only state but also most church records.

Not so. The statutory birth, death and marriages records were unaffected by the 1922 fire. (They were stored elsewhere). The originals all still exist. They start in 1845 (for marriages) and 1864 for births & deaths. The birth records around 1898 are intact.

I go to PRONI from time to time, and if you want me to look for John/Jack’s will, please let me have his date of death and I'll look for it.

[grisel]

Have you looked at the Belfast City Council burial records at https://www.
belfastcity.gov.uk/community/burialrecords/burialrecords.aspx

It's free to search, but you can't order images for anything less than 75 years old, which may be a bit of a drawback.

Arthur

You have probably checked this and it may be a different John. There is a John Shaw who died 21 June 1950 buried 23 June 1950 at Dundonald Cemetery, Grave E6 259. Died Royal Victoria Hospital. Address 17 Ardgreenan Gardens.
In 1943 Street Directory there is a J Shaw , electrician at that address.

[onlyme]

You have probably checked this and it may be a different John. There is a John Shaw who died 21 June 1950 buried 23 June 1950 at Dundonald Cemetery, Grave E6 259. Died Royal Victoria Hospital. Address 17 Ardgreenan Gardens.
In 1943 Street Directory there is a J Shaw , electrician at that address.

Thank you, grisel. Yes, this is him. A different press cutting from about 1943 says that he was "divisional superintendant of the Belfast Corporation Electricity Department Division of the Order of St John". (sic)

Now I have got the documents out of the safe I have two family press announcements; one, cold and factual is signed M Shaw (with no indication of relationship). The other says he died in the Royal Victoria Hospital (I know it was stomach cancer), "beloved son of Anna Shaw, Bangor Co Down. Very deeply regretted by his sorrowing Mother"
Street directories of Bangor at that time show only one Anna Shaw and I traced her son/grandson who is a geneology buff and he confirmed that the entry was for a different Anna and he did not know of the mother Anna

[SansSouci]

Well done Arthurk, He is listed in Dundonald Cemetery Grave section and number E6 259 as buried John Shaw 54 Years 21 June 1950 23 June 1950 Dundonald Cemetery detailsJohn Shaw Last place of residence Royal Victoria Hospital 17 Ardgreenan Gdns
Age 54 Years
Date of death 21 June 1950
Date of burial 23 June 1950

The Belfast Gazette confirms his address
Friday 10th July 1942 first item John Shaw of 15 Ardgreenan Gardens Belfast was appointed to be a MBE by the King on the 3rd July see https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Belfast...e/179/data.pdf

Mary Lennons great website further confirms his address and occupation in the 1943 Street Directory and in 1932 where the street number is 13..Her next earlier directory shows Ardgreenan gardens didn’t exist in 1918. In 1918 I couldnt find a John Shaw who had a property address, there is no section on Bangor listed, there is a Mrs. Margaret Shaw, 78 Deramore Avenue

Again Arthur has the 1911 census to which I add
James and Maggie in 1901 census in 3 Sea View St, but in 1911 John missing, somewhere I saw a john in 1991 living or visiting a granny outside of Belfast
John and Margaret son John aged 10 5 in Belgravia Street (Windsor, Antrim)

"Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBJ4-7Z2 : accessed 19 Jun 2014), BIRTHS entry for John Shaw; citing Belfast, Apr - Jun 1898, vol. 1, p. 403, General Registry, Custom House, Dublin; FHL microfilm

Must go now the search narrows keep going jimG