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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by grisel View Post
    You have probably checked this and it may be a different John. There is a John Shaw who died 21 June 1950 buried 23 June 1950 at Dundonald Cemetery, Grave E6 259. Died Royal Victoria Hospital. Address 17 Ardgreenan Gardens.
    In 1943 Street Directory there is a J Shaw , electrician at that address.
    Thank you, grisel. Yes, this is him. A different press cutting from about 1943 says that he was "divisional superintendant of the Belfast Corporation Electricity Department Division of the Order of St John". (sic)

    Now I have got the documents out of the safe I have two family press announcements; one, cold and factual is signed M Shaw (with no indication of relationship). The other says he died in the Royal Victoria Hospital (I know it was stomach cancer), "beloved son of Anna Shaw, Bangor Co Down. Very deeply regretted by his sorrowing Mother"
    Street directories of Bangor at that time show only one Anna Shaw and I traced her son/grandson who is a geneology buff and he confirmed that the entry was for a different Anna and he did not know of the mother Anna

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwyn Soutter View Post
    Not so. The statutory birth, death and marriages records were unaffected by the 1922 fire. (They were stored elsewhere). The originals all still exist. They start in 1845 (for marriages) and 1864 for births & deaths. The birth records around 1898 are intact.

    I go to PRONI from time to time, and if you want me to look for John/Jack’s will, please let me have his date of death and I'll look for it.
    Elwyn. Thank you very much for your most generous offer. IF you go AND have the time:
    John Shaw, born 1895 died June 21, 1950 at the Royal Victoria Hospital (more info about relatives in my reply to grisel)

    I tried to check for a will on the PRONI web site but came up with a blank on all combinations so he may have died intestate.

    Please don't go to any expense since I wouldn't know how to reimburse you

  3. #13
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    The indexes to wills on the PRONI website only go up to 1943. Wills after that aren’t listed on the site, and so you would not get a match for someone who died in 1950. However there are will books for each year, in PRONI, which you can look up if you go in person. I’ll do that for you. There’s no cost involved as they are free to access. If there’s a probate file, I’ll have a look at it (again that’s free) and get any relevant names. Even if he died intestate, there should be the executors oaths, and the estate summary document, which will tell us a little about who wound his estate up and whether he had next of kin.
    ELWYN

  4. #14
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    Googling I came on this site for Orange Order Lodge Membership 1893 - 2000. Payment required I think. However I have no idea if it would be of any use to you.
    http:
    //discover.ukdataservice.ac.uk/catalogue?sn=4435

  5. #15
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    I found a probate file for John Shaw in PRONI. Probate was granted on 16.10.1951. He was described as a Corporation Official, and he died intestate. The executrix was Margreta Shaw, his widow, of 17 Ardgreenan Gdns. The file contains the usual executors oath signed by Margreta, together with a bond signed by John Wilkinson, electrician, of 17 Ardgreenan Gdns, and Henry McKibbin, estate agent of 4 Donegall Sq West. Normally with intestacy there is also a form detailing the deceased’s estate and his next of kin. Unfortunately in this case that form is missing. However at least you know his wife’s name. You might also wonder who John Wilkinson was. He signed a bond apparently required by the probate court to ensure the estate was properly administered. He’d hardly be just a lodger. Might he perhaps be something like a nephew or son in law? Something to explore.

    I looked at the Belfast street directory for 17 Ardgreenan Gdns. Until 1950 the householder was WG Hall, assistant manager. From 1951 until 1980 it remained in the name of Margreta Hall. It would appear therefore that Margreta died or went into a home around 1980.

    The information should enable you to trace her death certificate (1979 onwards), and you may also be able to find the marriage to John Shaw. Her name appears consistently as Margreta, and so this may be a helpful clue when searching the marriage indexes. Though John Shaw is a common name, I don’t imagine there are too many marriages to a Margreta. And once you have her maiden name, it’s possible to then use the GRONI indexes to search and see if they had any children.

    Births, deaths and marriages from 1.1.1922 onwards in Northern Ireland are not on-line (yet) and so at the moment you need to contact GRONI to search for all these events. https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/gro
    ELWYN

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by grisel View Post
    Googling I came on this site for Orange Order Lodge Membership 1893 - 2000. Payment required I think. However I have no idea if it would be of any use to you.
    http:
    //discover.ukdataservice.ac.uk/catalogue?sn=4435
    Sorry for the delay, Grisel. I have had an exchange of messages with the Orange Order central office and one of their historians. Unfortunately all records of that particular Lodge have been lost through water or age so they cannot help. I'm up to my neck at the moment so I can't plan a trip to Belfast for the time being.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwyn Soutter View Post
    I found a probate file for John Shaw in PRONI. Probate was granted on 16.10.1951. He was described as a Corporation Official, and he died intestate. The executrix was Margreta Shaw, his widow, of 17 Ardgreenan Gdns. The file contains the usual executors oath signed by Margreta, together with a bond signed by John Wilkinson, electrician, of 17 Ardgreenan Gdns, and Henry McKibbin, estate agent of 4 Donegall Sq West. Normally with intestacy there is also a form detailing the deceased’s estate and his next of kin. Unfortunately in this case that form is missing. However at least you know his wife’s name. You might also wonder who John Wilkinson was. He signed a bond apparently required by the probate court to ensure the estate was properly administered. He’d hardly be just a lodger. Might he perhaps be something like a nephew or son in law? Something to explore.

    I looked at the Belfast street directory for 17 Ardgreenan Gdns. Until 1950 the householder was WG Hall, assistant manager. From 1951 until 1980 it remained in the name of Margreta Hall. It would appear therefore that Margreta died or went into a home around 1980.

    The information should enable you to trace her death certificate (1979 onwards), and you may also be able to find the marriage to John Shaw. Her name appears consistently as Margreta, and so this may be a helpful clue when searching the marriage indexes. Though John Shaw is a common name, I don’t imagine there are too many marriages to a Margreta. And once you have her maiden name, it’s possible to then use the GRONI indexes to search and see if they had any children.

    Births, deaths and marriages from 1.1.1922 onwards in Northern Ireland are not on-line (yet) and so at the moment you need to contact GRONI to search for all these events. https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/gro
    Elwyn; thank you very much and sorry for the delay in replying. I knew about John Wilkinson living at that address even before Jack Shaw died (credit company records) and I only knew Margreta's initial so all that is new information which I can follow up on. Interesting that she changed her name to Hall soon after Shaw's death - I had suspicions that not all was right with that marriage.
    Just found out that there was an attempt to sell Jack Shaw's MBE, St John's Ambulance regalia and other medals two years ago and I have spoken to the auctioneer who (I hope) has forwarded a letter to the buyer. The combination of campaign medals is itself a puzzle - merchant Navy (verified) and also several land forces medals which I cannot trace.
    FWIW the Orange Order Lodge and its records no longer exist.
    Thanks again.
    Last edited by onlyme; 10-03-2014 at 3:28 PM. Reason: original post in error

  8. #18
    SansSouci
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    Well done Arthurk, He is listed in Dundonald Cemetery Grave section and number E6 259 as buried John Shaw 54 Years 21 June 1950 23 June 1950 Dundonald Cemetery detailsJohn Shaw Last place of residence Royal Victoria Hospital 17 Ardgreenan Gdns
    Age 54 Years
    Date of death 21 June 1950
    Date of burial 23 June 1950

    The Belfast Gazette confirms his address
    Friday 10th July 1942 first item John Shaw of 15 Ardgreenan Gardens Belfast was appointed to be a MBE by the King on the 3rd July see https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Belfast...e/179/data.pdf

    Mary Lennons great website further confirms his address and occupation in the 1943 Street Directory and in 1932 where the street number is 13..Her next earlier directory shows Ardgreenan gardens didn’t exist in 1918. In 1918 I couldnt find a John Shaw who had a property address, there is no section on Bangor listed, there is a Mrs. Margaret Shaw, 78 Deramore Avenue

    Again Arthur has the 1911 census to which I add
    James and Maggie in 1901 census in 3 Sea View St, but in 1911 John missing, somewhere I saw a john in 1991 living or visiting a granny outside of Belfast
    John and Margaret son John aged 10 5 in Belgravia Street (Windsor, Antrim)

    "Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBJ4-7Z2 : accessed 19 Jun 2014), BIRTHS entry for John Shaw; citing Belfast, Apr - Jun 1898, vol. 1, p. 403, General Registry, Custom House, Dublin; FHL microfilm

    Must go now the search narrows keep going jimG

  9. #19

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    Thanks, Sans Souci for the depth of investigation you carried out.

    Elwyn Soutter has established the wife's name as Margreta.
    He got a list of medals from WWI and I was able to get a copy of the despatch note in 1919 to Belfast : "The address they were sent to in Sept 1919 was in Henderson Avenue off Old Cavehill Road but the directory for 1918 shows a boot buyer at that address." From memory the flat name could have been Seagull or similar. He wasn't there 6 months before and he doesn't appear a short time later. As a seaman (well he was one before the war) that could have been an accommodation address of a friend.

    There are several unanswered questions for me to pursue:

    Who is John Wilkinson? One source indicates he was a lodger but to sign a bond suggests more.
    Other children? In my last message I mentioned the sale of all his medals via an auctioneer. The buyer has not responded to my letter.

    Another idea included purely for interest: The medals were originally auctioned in New York, brought to London and again auctioned - it was the London auction which I found out about. It is a possibility that John Shaw had a relative, Walter Shaw, who lived in Connecticut (he is described as wealthy), also just outside Paris, France and was the subject of a painting which my daughter saw - and thought the sitter was me! That Walter Shaw had, as a partner, a male French painter so I don't expect any progeny there.

    The next puzzle for me is the name Hall; He (?) was the householder until 1950 and in 1951 she, the widow, became the householder and changed her name to Hall. I'm going to check the registers again given the differing house numbers and to see if Hall was actually the next door neighbour or if she remarried.

    Address 15 or 17? My feeling is that 15 (in the Belfast Gazette announcement of the MBE) is wrong. Other credit reference sources which tend to be ultra reliable very clearly indicate 17 and this was used in the death announcements, probate etc.

    It's going to be a while before I can get the time to go to Belfast; Unfortunately everything is in the UK and I'm at work abroad.

    Thanks again, Sans Souci and everyone else who has contributed.

  10. #20
    SansSouci
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    Not being sure even if dates wrong but have you seen the two John Shaws in https://www.irishmariners.ie/searchda...&submit=Search

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