How can I be sure I have the correct family?

[jules67]

My paternal grandfather was William Thomas Roberts. I know very little about his background and so far i have been unable to identify for sure his birth mother.
Over the last year i have found out a lot about him. Here is what i do know.

He died in Abergele North Wales on Dec 23rd 1931
He married Sarah Kenworthy (my grandmother) in St Asaph in May 1915
He married Alice Kenworthy in Dobcross Yorkshire in August 1905 ( and yes.....they were sisters!!!)

His headstone on the grave says he was 56 at the time of his death, but the dates on various census records and his marriages are not reliable. his age on both marriage records is 40 years old even though they were 10 years apart and on the 1911 census he states his age as 45.

He seems to of been born in Rhyl, Flintshire and his father (as noted on his wedding certificates) was Daniel Roberts, who was a farm labourer.

I do have a family I have placed him with in the Rhyl/Rhuddlan area on the 1881 census and a person i believe could be him working as a farm hand aged 15 in a neighbouring farm in 1891.
The mother of this family is Ann.
I can trace the family in Rhyl on the 1901 and 1911 census, but William Thomas is no longer with them.
I really need to find some link from 1891 to 1905 to confirm My William (post 1905) is connected to this family.

Or...of course.....the age on his gravestone may not be correct, in which case i have no idea of his birthdate!

Anyone able to give me any pointers to fillling in the gaps please?
I have found a William in Heaton Norris working for a Mr Edwin Simpson as a coachman. This man had links with the Rhyl area as he and his family appear to be holidaying in the area on an earlier census....and he later retired to the area. Its a possibility...but im not 100% convinced.

[jules67]

Just realised....should this of gone on the Flintshire forum? Whoops! Please move if i've posted in the wrong place!!

[Mutley]

It's not really posted in the wrong place but Flintshire would probably be a better place.
The removal van is on it's way.

[Mutley]

Please can you confirm if this is the family you think William belongs with in 1881?

Living at Penddauglawdd Cottage, Rhuddlan
Daniel Roberts age 47
Ann Roberts age 40
David Edward Roberts age 17
William Thomas Roberts age 5
Anne Roberts age 4
Jane Roberts age 1

RG11/5527 Folio 136, Page 12

[jules67]

Yes...thats them Mutley.
Coincidently......my house is build on land once owned by the same farm!


im using the age and date on his gravestone as my guide to his age and birth date. Other family member seemed to think he was much older! (which is no help at all!!)

[MarkJ]

Do you actually have the death certificate for William - or either of the wedding certificates?
Although they can be a major expense, certificatres help to confirm details and avoid going down the wrong path....
Are you sure the grave headstone relates to the correct chap - not someone with the same name?

If the family Mutley has found are the right ones, then his age fits well with the death and the second marriage.

There is a William T Roberts death which looks promising -

December quarter 1931

St Asaph district

11b 359

Age is given as 57, but remember that the person giving the details may not have known his age. That is one reason to get the certificate - the persom giving the details will be identified and you may be able to work out the likelihood of them knowing.

[jules67]

yes...that him Mark. He died 23rd Dec 1931. Its definately him.....my nain is buried with him in the same cemetery as many other family members including my parents. I have his marriage certificate to Sarah and a copy of the parish entry for his marriage to Alice. I am in the process of getting Williams death certificate.

[MarkJ]

Sounds like you have got the right evidence there Jules

So the problem is locating his birth so you can identify his mother. Is the Ann mentioned in the census not his mother? Or did Daniel remarry?

If it is perhaps Ann, then a possible marriage with an Ann and a Daniel Roberts both listed would be -

St Asaph district
June quarter 1862
11b 641

and the Ann is Ann WILLIAMS

Not saying this is them, but just a possibility

[Mutley]

I will admit I am struggling to find much at all. Flintshire baptisms are on FMP and some on Family Search but I cannot find a William with a father named Daniel. I also cannot find a baptism for David Edward. There is quite a gap between David and William.

I keep wondering if they are Ann's children and had a different surname at birth.
Have you found Daniel, Ann and David in 1871?

[Megan Roberts]

I had a very similar problem with my gt gt grandfather Evan Roberts from Caernarfon. I first identified him from an in memorium card, and then his headstone, and death certificate, and each of them differed slightly in terms of age. I then got my gt grandfather's birth certificate which gave his mother's name as Jane Griffith. Go back in time there was, suprisingly, only one marriage that fitted, and the certificate for that showed his father as Llewelyn. For a long time the only birth I could identify for Evan, based on the ages given, showed his father as Robert. Now because this was around the time civil registration was introduced (early-mid 1840s), I thought maybe it was a patrionymic thing (Evan ap Robert becomes Evan Roberts), but that did not really explain Llewelyn.

Then another family researcher got the local registery office to page turn births looking for Llewelyn as the father, and found it, in 1839, so he was actually older than I thought.

The moral here is (a) be prepared to search on a wide band of years (+/- 5 years or if that does not work +/-10 years); and (b) don't assume because its Wales and Welsh names that its a no hoper.

Looking at the 1881 census that Mutley has identified that must have a good chance of being the right one, so if I were you I would concentrate on the births of a William Thomas Roberts 1875/1876, looking for one that has Daniel as the father. If the local registrar can't help then get the GRO to look by not specifying their references, just the years and the name of the father. Although you have to pay up front, if they can't find the match (i.e. Daniel father) then they refund immediately.