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  1. #1
    Jan Elvin
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    Default EARL SIWARD AND DYER CONNECTION - HELP PLEASE

    I am tracing my dear mother’s Dyer family tree and have come across the following quote: 'According to Mr Fredrick Nathaniel Dyer, who was the great-great-nephew of Sir William Jones, "The Dyers were settled in Glastonbury, Somersetshire, before the Conquest. After the defeat of the Saxons at Senlac, near Hastings, Siward and his two sons, Siward Bearn and Wight retired to Glastonbury, from whence they issued to make war on the Normans as occasion served, until leaving their wives and children in charge of the monks, they joined Hereward in the famous Camp of Refuge. Siward (about 1036) was Earl of Northumbria, (Earl being on official title and meaning military governor), and his is the Siward of Shakespeare's 'Macbeth'. He was descendant from Alfred the Great, and I can prove, by legal proof, our descent from him and am able to bring such evidence to bear on the matter as will carry conviction to any sane mind".

    According to my research to date, Siward is descendant from a long line of Danish and Swedish kings and there is ample evidence to prove that. The connection I am unable to make is between Siward Bearn, or Wight, to the first Dyer in our tree who was born in 1300. His name is not recorded. His son was John Dyer born 1335. John’s son (name unknown) was born 1380. His son was Ralph Dyer born 1414, and so on.

    Is there anyone who can help me make the connection between Siward Bearn, or Wight, and the first Dyer born 1300 please? Any assistance would be very much appreciated. Thanks.

    Jan

  2. #2
    Coromandel
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    Default

    Hello Jan and welcome

    I will have to start by confessing that I am always suspicious of any family tree that goes back to before the beginning of parish registers in the 1500s, unless it is exceptionally well documented. (After nearly 30 years' research some of my lines are still stuck in the late eighteenth century, and none go back before 1600.)

    Once you get back to Anglo-Saxon times there is so much nonsense online about who was related to whom that it is difficult to sort out what's fact and what's fantasy. The fact that people did not have surnames in this period makes it especially difficult to distinguish one Siward from another.

    The excellent Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE) website gives numbers to different people of the same name and links them to documentary sources. The Earl of Northumbria (d.1054) they call Sieward 11; two sons have been identified, Osbeorn (#2) and Waltheof (#2). Sieward 'Bearn' is their Sieward 14. There seem to be very few definite facts about him.

    G.W.S. Barrow says of Siward Bearn in his article 'Companions of the Atheling',
    'Attempts to connect him with Siward Digera the Dane, whom Edward the Confessor made earl of Northumbria, have not seemed convincing . . . In any event, Siward Bearn, like Bishop Aethelwine, went to join Hereward the Wake in Ely and then submitted to the Conqueror [note 38]. Held prisoner in Normandy till 1087, he did not return to Scotland, nor did he found any dynasty there [note 39].'
    (published in Anglo-Norman Studies vol. XXV, Proceedings of the Battle Conference 2002, partly visible on Google Books)

    I cannot find a reference to either the Earl of Northumbria or Siward Bearn being in Glastonbury. Perhaps it was another of the many Si(e)wards listed in PASE who was there.

    I would recommend that you read about how and when surnames were formed before you take Mr Dyers claims too seriously. Dyer sounds to me like a classic occupational surname. In my own home town in Oxfordshire a list of tenants in 1279 includes Galfridus Tinctor and Ricardus Tinctor (Geoffrey Dyer and Richard Dyer). These may not yet have been fixed hereditary surnames, but rather 'by-names' to distinguish them from other Geoffreys and Richards.

    You could try investigating who Mr Frederick Nathaniel Dyer was, and whether he has left behind any manuscripts. Somehow I doubt very much that he could really 'prove, by legal proof' to be descended from Siward.

  3. #3
    Jan Elvin
    Guest

    Default DYER SIGA - ANOTHER QUESTION

    Hi Team,
    Thank you so much for your response to my Siward – Dyer connection question. That being the case, do you have any way of accessing any records that are able to confirm the name of the father (born 1300) of John Dyer born 1335. We believe they lived in Somersetshire. All the Dyer relatives seem to live around the Somersetshire area for many generations. Is it possible to go back even further? I would like to go back as far as possible. Your assistance would be gratefully appreciated.

    Cheers,
    Jan
    Quote Originally Posted by Coromandel View Post
    Hello Jan and welcome

    I will have to start by confessing that I am always suspicious of any family tree that goes back to before the beginning of parish registers in the 1500s, unless it is exceptionally well documented. (After nearly 30 years' research some of my lines are still stuck in the late eighteenth century, and none go back before 1600.)

    Once you get back to Anglo-Saxon times there is so much nonsense online about who was related to whom that it is difficult to sort out what's fact and what's fantasy. The fact that people did not have surnames in this period makes it especially difficult to distinguish one Siward from another.

    The excellent Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE) website gives numbers to different people of the same name and links them to documentary sources. The Earl of Northumbria (d.1054) they call Sieward 11; two sons have been identified, Osbeorn (#2) and Waltheof (#2). Sieward 'Bearn' is their Sieward 14. There seem to be very few definite facts about him.

    G.W.S. Barrow says of Siward Bearn in his article 'Companions of the Atheling',
    'Attempts to connect him with Siward Digera the Dane, whom Edward the Confessor made earl of Northumbria, have not seemed convincing . . . In any event, Siward Bearn, like Bishop Aethelwine, went to join Hereward the Wake in Ely and then submitted to the Conqueror [note 38]. Held prisoner in Normandy till 1087, he did not return to Scotland, nor did he found any dynasty there [note 39].'
    (published in Anglo-Norman Studies vol. XXV, Proceedings of the Battle Conference 2002, partly visible on Google Books)

    I cannot find a reference to either the Earl of Northumbria or Siward Bearn being in Glastonbury. Perhaps it was another of the many Si(e)wards listed in PASE who was there.

    I would recommend that you read about how and when surnames were formed before you take Mr Dyers claims too seriously. Dyer sounds to me like a classic occupational surname. In my own home town in Oxfordshire a list of tenants in 1279 includes Galfridus Tinctor and Ricardus Tinctor (Geoffrey Dyer and Richard Dyer). These may not yet have been fixed hereditary surnames, but rather 'by-names' to distinguish them from other Geoffreys and Richards.

    You could try investigating who Mr Frederick Nathaniel Dyer was, and whether he has left behind any manuscripts. Somehow I doubt very much that he could really 'prove, by legal proof' to be descended from Siward.

  4. #4
    Coromandel
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Elvin View Post
    do you have any way of accessing any records that are able to confirm the name of the father (born 1300) of John Dyer born 1335. We believe they lived in Somersetshire. All the Dyer relatives seem to live around the Somersetshire area for many generations. Is it possible to go back even further? I would like to go back as far as possible.
    Before you start trying to go back earlier, I would concentrate on checking the accuracy of what you have so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Elvin View Post
    . . . the first Dyer in our tree . . . was born in 1300. His name is not recorded. His son was John Dyer born 1335. John's son (name unknown) was born 1380. His son was Ralph Dyer born 1414, and so on.
    What is your source for this information? It seems to be suspiciously vague about names while at the same time being surprisingly precise about dates. Did you perhaps get it from an online tree such as this one:

    https://www.
    rwisevision.com/bloodline/wise_dyer/Public/FH%20Website/ind116.html

    or from the old IGI? If so I would be extremely sceptical about it. Any genealogist who knows their stuff should cite their sources and explain their reasoning so that you can check whether you agree.

    Don't believe everything you read, whether it's online or in a printed book. I'm afraid too many people in the past have assumed that things like the IGI were 100% complete and 100% accurate, with disastrous consequences. This means that there's a lot of mis-information online. You need to check each step of your family tree, starting with what is definitely known, and getting documentary evidence that will prove the link with earlier generations. Unfortunately this process often leads to old family stories about rich and famous ancestors being proved quite wrong.

    It looks like there may be some published pedigrees for the Dyers, which may help. For example, I can see a snippet of the 1908 'Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological & Natural History Society' on Google Books, in which there are mentions of some Dyer wills, and of a Ralph Dyer of Wincanton who was alive in the reign of Henry VI. It sounds as if the original may have a pedigree in it. If you can track down a copy (perhaps your library can arrange an inter-library loan?) this may give you some source references. Again, just because something's appeared in print doesn't mean it is well researched or guaranteed to be true.

    Medieval genealogy is a specialist subject. For an idea of what sources are available to researchers, I suggest you study the excellent Medieval English Genealogy website:

    https://www.
    medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html

    and read Paul Chambers' book, 'Medieval Genealogy'. My own forays into pre-1500 material have been pretty limited, mainly because I haven't had much practice in reading handwriting of that period or in translating medieval Latin. If you are researching a wealthy family there is potentially a great deal of material there, for example in manorial records, but most of it won't be online at all.

    As I've said already though, I think it's crucial that you checked and double-check all the logic in your tree so far, before you try to push further back. For me, quality is far more important than quantity in family history. That's probably why my own tree doesn't go back very far!

  5. #5
    Jan Elvin
    Guest

    Default DYER SIGA

    Team,

    Again, many, many thanks for your valuable input. The website you gave has confirmed that I am on the right track. May be this is the limit and I should be satisfied. Will try and obtain a copy of the recommended book just to see if there is something there.

    Unfortunately my enquiries as to who holds Fredrick Nathaniel Dyer's manuscripts have proved fruitless. It seems he has written a number of books. He was a member of the Peace and Harmony Lodge and even enquiries with them to track down his near relatives has been fruitless. (A number of his Lodge medals were offered for auction in 2002.) So my efforts have not been without a lot of 'trying'. Thanks again.

    Cheers,
    Jan


    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Elvin View Post
    Hi Team,
    Thank you so much for your response to my Siward – Dyer connection question. That being the case, do you have any way of accessing any records that are able to confirm the name of the father (born 1300) of John Dyer born 1335. We believe they lived in Somersetshire. All the Dyer relatives seem to live around the Somersetshire area for many generations. Is it possible to go back even further? I would like to go back as far as possible. Your assistance would be gratefully appreciated.

    Cheers,
    Jan

  6. #6
    Coromandel
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Elvin View Post
    The website you gave has confirmed that I am on the right track. May be this is the limit and I should be satisfied.
    Sorry, Jan, you seem to have misunderstood me. I quoted this website as an example of an online tree that should be taken with a very large pinch of salt, as it gives no information whatsoever as to the sources of its information. What I have tried to stress is that you cannot assume that what it says is true. You need to find out where the tree owner got the information, in order that you can judge how reliable it is. The fact that no sources are cited makes me suspect that there is no sound research behind the tree.

  7. #7
    Coromandel
    Guest

    Default

    Hello again Jan

    To give you an idea of why I am not convinced by the tree on the rwisevision.com site (post #4), contrast it with this research on a different medieval family:

    https://www.
    medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/tempest/tempest1.shtml

    and subsequent pages.

    Note that:
    • the sources of information are given
    • dates often cannot be established exactly; so here we find statements such as 'We believe the outside limits for the second John Tempest's birth are 1303 to 1313, most probably between 1305 and 1311. ' I find this sort of thing more credible than someone just stating flatly that Ralph Dyer was born in 1414 without any evidence being given whatsoever. Yes, there might be some written evidence somewhere: but you need to find out where, rather than just accepting what someone else has said.
    • different published sources can disagree; you will need to assess which ones you think are most valid. It isn't always possible to come to a conclusion. Some genealogy software even allows you to give a % certainty value to a particular 'fact', or to have various candidate parents for one individual. All too often, we just can't be 100% sure about things.
    Even in printed books there's a lot of bad genealogy, but the internet has just allowed the proliferation of cobbled-together trees that don't stand up to close scrutiny. Be cautious! Always ask "How do they know that?" and "Is that really true?". If there is no mention of any sources, be suspicious!

    Perhaps you will be able to find a better documented version of the Dyer pedigree that does allow you to check the facts. It may not be online though!

    P.S. sorry if this seems very negative. It just seems to me that it's better to have a small but accurate tree than an extensive one that isn't based on solid research. Of course, it is entirely up to you what level of proof you accept.

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