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  1. #1
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    Default William Francis Lloyd Forden Montgomeryshire

    I am attempting to locate and validate information about my wife's 3x great grandfather William Francis Lloyd. My current data shows him born 5/10/1797 Forden, Montgomeryshire, Wales. I show that he probably immigrated to Canada in 1813 with his mother and father.

    I also have the following from a family member, some of which is supplemental:

    (new research May 2011 suggests William may have been christened 2 weeks after he was born on 28 May 1797 in Forden, Montgomeryshire, Wales, having parents named John and Mary... If correct, this would mean he was born most likely in about the same place in Wales; perhaps 5 miles to the NNW of the church at Forden in a place known as "Llwydiarth".
    In addition, William and Sarah's 2nd & 3rd children were named John and Mary...
    His son Wm. Jr's death certificate refers to William being b. Wales as well)


    The "Sarah" referenced is his wife Sarah Ann Holmes (Holme) b. 6/7/1802 Sheffield, England. Whether they were married in Wales/England or Canada is in question.

    Any help or suggestions about how I might proceed will be greatly appreciated. I have only been doing genealogy family research for about 2 years, most of which has been in the US. I am now starting to expand to other continents and countries and it is a bit intimidating.

    Jim Davis

  2. #2
    Jan1954
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    Hello Jim - welcome to Brit-Gen,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Davies
    My current data shows him born 5/10/1797
    Do I take it that you mean 10th May? In Britain, the date written this way would indicate 5th October. Always handy to write the months in full and then there can be no confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Davies
    new research May 2011 suggests William may have been christened 2 weeks after he was born on 28 May 1797 in Forden, Montgomeryshire, Wales, having parents named John and Mary...
    This is probably from the record on Family Search. The batch number is C15546-1, film number 992303 and, if you contact your nearest Family History Centre, they will be able to order the film in so that you can have a look.

    Where was William and Sarah's eldest child born?

  3. #3
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    Hi Jan

    Thanks for the welcome. I look forward to getting to know lots of folks out here.

    You are correct in assuming that I meant May 10. You know us bloody yanks - we will talk to you in any language you like as long as it is English :-).

    We have a Family History Center near where I live, although I have not yet visited it. I do have that visit on my ToDo list for the near future.

    Finally, William and Sarah's eldest 3 children were born in 1823 1825 & 1827, but I do not show any indication of where they were born. The 4th, born in 1829, through the 12 child were all born in Ontario Canada.

    Thanks again for your response and I appreciate your assistance.

    Regards
    Jim

  4. #4
    Coromandel
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    There's a Find A Grave page about William (and linked pages for Sarah and some of their children):

    http://www.
    findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=24308919

    The first part of the write-up there says 'William was born according to family sources/lore in London, England and married Sarah Holmes there before they both came to Canada and raised a family with 12 children.' The details about the Forden baptism seem to have been added later. Do you know if there is any firm evidence that the William Francis Lloyd baptised in Forden was indeed the one who went to Canada?

    You mention that William 'probably immigrated to Canada in 1813 with his parents'. Have you found an immigration record or do you have any sightings of the parents or any siblings in Canada?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Davis View Post
    William and Sarah's eldest 3 children were born in 1823 1825 & 1827, but I do not show any indication of where they were born. The 4th, born in 1829, through the 12 child were all born in Ontario Canada.
    Also from Find A Grave, John ('1st son and 2nd child' of William & Sarah) was born 10 Jan. 1825 Kent County, Ontario.

    Finding the marriage of William and Sarah may be crucial. I note that the memorial doesn't give a middle name for William. From your original post he presumably sometimes used the middle name Francis? But it may be that he was baptised and married as plain William Lloyd, which is going to make identifying him much harder.

    I wonder if it might be easier to try to follow Sarah's movements and see if that helps narrow down when/where she may have married. You say she was born in Sheffield. What is the source of this information? The Find A Grave website says that 'Sarah was born at Overhouses, Turton, Bolton, Lancashire' on 7 June 1802 (which ties in with the date of birth you give '6/7/1802' if the date is in mm/dd/yyyy format). A different birthdate (9 January 1804) is given at

    http://www.
    webination.com/holmes/holme/d210.htm

    which says that Sarah and two brothers were baptised in 1809 (at Tatham, Lancashire?). The same site says her father Bryan Holme (without an 's') died in 1829 in Southwold Twp, Elgin Co., Upper Canada.

    Going back to William, sometimes it is easier to rule people out than rule them in. For example, you might be able to show that the William Francis Lloyd baptised in Forden did not survive infancy, or was still in Forden after your wife's ancestor appears in Canada.

    Must go now . . . late for work!

  5. #5
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    Dear Brick
    Thanks for your response and the effort you have obviously already invested. The FindAGrave website does have quite a bit of information about both William and Sarah, most of it provided by Jeff Lloyd. Jeff is a cousin of my wife, who she remembers from years back but I have been unsuccessful in my efforts to reestablish contact with him recently.
    You said “The details about the Forden baptism seem to have been added later. Do you know if there is any firm evidence that the William Francis Lloyd baptized in Forden was indeed the one who went to Canada?”
    Jeff did add William’s baptism information later and, while I cannot say for sure, I presume that it may be related to the FamilySearch reference cited by Jan above in post #2. The FS reference is for William Lloyd and not William Francis Lloyd. And I do not have anything firm indicating that this is the same William.
    You also said “You mention that William 'probably immigrated to Canada in 1813 with his parents'. Have you found an immigration record or do you have any sightings of the parents or any siblings in Canada?”
    I arrived at the 1813 date from the following writeup about William’s son Robert: ******** Source: The Historical Encyclopedia of Illinois and History of Fulton County Munsell Publishing Co., Chicago, 1908 *********** The Biography of Robert LLOYD LLOYD, ROBERT A highly respected resident of Canton, Illinois, who carried on general farming in Joshua Twp. with successful results for many years, but in later life devoted himself exclusively to stock-raising, was born in Ontario, Canada, Feb. 23, 1839, a son of William and Sarah Secomsa (HOLMES), Lloyd, natives of England, the former born in London and the latter in Sheffield. William Lloyd, who was a farmer by occupation came with his parents from England to Canada when he was sixteen years of age, and Sarah Holmes accompanied her parents across the Atlantic at the age of four. Both families settled in Canada. There William Lloyd and Sarah Holmes were married in the course of time and their union has been blessed with twelve children. Robert Lloyd received his early mental training in the public schools of Ontario ……………………………………………….etc.

    And I agree that their 2nd child John is shown as being born in Canada so that would place William and Sarah in Canada prior to 1825.

    You are correct in saying that finding the marriage of William and Sarah may be crucial, and I will double my efforts to locate a record (assumed in Canada) that will eliminate this uncertainty.

    You make a good suggestion that it might be easier to try to follow Sarah's movements and see if that helps narrow down when/where she may have married. And your reference to http://www. webination.com/holmes/holme/d210.htm is new to me. Thanks for providing it.

    Sarah Ann Holme(s)
    b. 7 June, 1802 Overhouses, Turton, Bolton, Lancashire, England (FindAGrave)
    alternative reference to Sheffield from Robert Lloyd article above.
    b. 9 Jan 1804 in Overhouses, Botton, Tatham, Lancashire, England. (webnation)
    Baptized 16 Apr 1809 in Tatham Fells, Lancashire, England. (webnation)
    Immigrated to Canada in 1806 (age 4) with parents (Robert Lloyd article above). Obvious conflict between 1806 immigration and 1809 baptism in England.
    d. Jan 15, 1891 Dresden, Kent, Ontario

    FamilySearch has a record "Ontario Deaths,1869-1937 and Overseas Deaths, 1939-1947," showing that her age at death was 89, which would make her birth year 1802, which supports the FindAGrave date and refutes the Webnation date.

    Hope you had a fun day at work.

    Jim

  6. #6
    Coromandel
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    Hello again Jim

    Work wasn't too bad, but I soon get withdrawal sympoms when I'm away from the Brit-Gen forum. Here are a few more thoughts, mainly on the Holme(s) family.

    The excellent Lancashire Online Parish Clerks site has transcripts of the parish registers for the Church of the Good Shepherd, Tatham Fells, Lancashire, which include the multiple baptism on 16 April 1809 of three children of Bryan Holme (farmer, of Over Houses, Bolton) and Mary:

    Sarah (born 9 January 1804)
    Robert (born 7 April 1806)
    Richard Ash (born 19 January 1809).

    as well as a later baptism, that of another Robert son of Bryan & Mary Holme, b. 23 August 1811 & bapt. 22 Sept. 1811 Tatham Fells, father a farmer of Leyland, Melling. This might indicate that the first Robert, born 1806 and bapt. 1809, died young. Alternatively, this could be a different Bryan & Mary.

    http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Tatham/shepherd/index.html

    To complicate matters, Tatham Fells seems to have been a chapelry of the parish of what FamilySearch calls 'Melling near Hornby'. Some of the baptisms shown on Lancashire OPC site as being at Tatham Fells are listed on FamilySearch in the Melling register. It may be that Tatham Fells had its own baptism register, but that baptisms there were also entered in the register of the 'mother church' at Melling.

    Some other children of Bryan & Mary only appear in the Melling register and some in yet another register, Tatham.

    Here are all the ones I spotted. I can't guarantee I found them all, or that I copied the details correctly . . . I'd advise you to double check, and of course to take a look at microfilm copies of the registers via your nearest FamilySearch Center. You can find the relevant film numbers via FamilySearch (let me know if you don't know how).

    Peggy bapt 2 Dec 1787 Tatham
    Mary bapt 18 Oct 1789 Tatham
    Betty bapt 15 Apr 1792 Tatham
    Jane bapt 6 Nov. 1796 Tatham
    Nancy bapt 22 Apr 1798 Melling (near Hornby)
    John, bapt 9 Jul 1801 [listed in both Melling and Tatham Fells registers]
    John Holme bapt 21 Nov 1802 Melling (near Hornby)
    Thomas Holme bapt 9 Aug 1807 Melling (near Hornby)
    Sarah Holme, bapt 16 Apr 1809 Melling (near Hornby)
    Robt. Holme, bapt 16 Apr 1809 Melling (near Hornby)
    Richd. Holme, bapt 19 Jan 1809 Melling (near Hornby) [but this was his birthdate according to Tatham Fells baptism]
    [Sarah, Robert and Richard Ash, bapt 16 Apr. 1809 Tatham Fells as previously found]
    Robert Holme b.23 Aug. 1811, bapt 22 Sept 1811 Tatham Fells [also appears in Melling register as Robert Holm]

    Then, after a six-year gap, we have Bryan bapt 30 Mar 1817 Tatham Fells. This would be 30 years after the baptism of Peggy; if the same Mary is mother of all these children she must have started her family very young. Other explanations could be that (a) this Bryan belongs to the next generation or (b) he is not being baptised as an infant or (c) Bryan the father had more than one wife, each called Mary.

    Lancashire OPC supplies details of what looks like the parents' marriage:

    Bryan Holme, husbandman of the parish of Tatham, and Mary Carter, spinster of this parish, were married by licence on 18 November 1786, St Wilfrid, Melling in Lonsdale; witnesses Thos. Bowskill and John Dowbiggin.

    But the $64,000 question is of course whether this is your Sarah Holme(s)' family. There is no doubt that some members of this family did go to Canada (from info on Find A Grave and the webination site mentioned in my previous post). For an interesting letter written by a Mary Robinson to her brother Robert Holme in Ontario, see

    http://www.
    rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,165939.msg782853.html#msg782853

    which has a list of siblings that (partially but not completely!) matches the list I've compiled from FamilySearch.

    If this is the correct family, though, then there are discrepancies with the details given in the biography of Robert Lloyd, as you've already noted. I am particularly intriuged by the word 'Secomsa' which appears to be given as a middle name to Sarah. I can't find any such name and neither can I think of what else it might mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Davis View Post
    FamilySearch has a record "Ontario Deaths,1869-1937 and Overseas Deaths, 1939-1947," showing that her age at death was 89, which would make her birth year 1802, which supports the FindAGrave date and refutes the Webnation date.
    Don't forget that ages as reported at death aren't always accurate. Also, you can't calculate the exact year of birth from a death date unless you know the exact age: she might have only just had her 89th birthday, or been just a day short of her 90th birthday, when she died. (I think you should be able to see the actual death register in Ancestry's 'Ontario, Canada, Deaths, 1869-1938'; worth checking in case there's any extra detail.)

    Have you found William & Sarah on all available Canadian censuses?

    Since both Sarah and William's families were in Canada, one possible avenue of enquiry would be to look for documents that establish connections between them and other Lloyd/Holme(s) individuals in the same area. For example, there might be probate records (I have no idea where! you could try asking on the Canada part of the forum) or obituaries.

    I hope this gives you some possible new leads . . . happy hunting!

    Coromandel a.k.a. Jane

  7. #7
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    In my efforts to find some type of record of immigration From England for the William Lloyd (John/Mary) and/or the Sarah Holme (Bryan/Mary) families, was there a port(s) of departure that people from the Montgomeryshire/Lancashire area would have favored back in the 1810/1825 period or would it have varied widely for other non geographical reasons?

    TIA
    Jim

  8. #8
    Jan1954
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    Liverpool was a favourite.

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