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  1. #11
    bergman93
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    Thank you notanotherminer, maybe your suggestion would help, I know I'm struggling. I've recently paid a visit to Luton Library and checked out the Electoral Registers they have there, but ran out of time trying to search newspapers. I'd appreciate your help in moving this thread to the Bedfordshire Forum.

  2. #12
    bergman93
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    Hello Peter, Yes the marriage in Suez is the first marriage I believe and I have the certificate for this.
    As you suggest I'll order the 1963 certificate for Philip Tobin as well.
    Thanks for your help.

  3. #13
    Colin Rowledge
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Goodey View Post
    I can't see anything either. Not being able to spot a birth is a bit puzzling particularly in view of what the questioner wrote in message #4.

    We definitely need more information from her if we are going to be able to help.
    What does it say on the Questioner's own birth certificate?

  4. #14
    dawnkaren
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    im not sure if i have read this post correctly but what i can gather you are looking for a marriage of philip tobin in hartlepool? and appears to be sometime after 1963?

    i have just looked on the tees valley site and found this,

    1976 CARR LYNN Hartlepool
    1976 TOBIN PHILIP

    now i know you said he was married to a mary but perhaps this man is the one your looking for?

  5. #15
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    Where do we stand on this?

    As I see it, bergman93 said in message #4:
    “Father - Philip Tobin b1914 Hartlepool...
    Mother Mary Elizabeth Watson, nee Randall b1910 Penrhiwceiber, Glamorgan”

    Our problem was that we couldn't see any corresponding birth.

    So, looking at the mother's details I'm guessing that the following GRO references are relevant:

    Births Jun 1910
    RANDELL Mary Elizabeth Pontypridd 11a 611

    Marriages Dec 1929
    Randell Mary E Watson Bedwellty 11a 152
    WATSON John H Randell Bedwellty 11a 152

    Taking care not to identify anyone who might be living, there are a couple of likely births (right surname and right mother's maiden name) in Bedwellty followed by a couple in Luton.

    This may be John H Watson's death:

    Deaths Sep 1944
    Watson John H 37 Luton 3b 418

    If this is the right death, we need to pay particular attention to events after 1944.

    I can see one possible later birth that ties in with the information given (surname Watson, mother's maiden name Rand?ll). The surname Tobin is not mentioned in the index.

    There is also the mysterious marriage of Mary E Watson or Brown -

    Marriages Dec 1946
    Watson Mary E Harrower Luton 4a 380
    Brown Mary E Harrower Luton 4a 380

    This may be a completely different person but I think bergman93 will want to get a copy to check.

    We really do need to know what details are shown on bergman93's birth certificate for the mother and father. We don't need bergman93 to identify herself if she doesn't want to.

    I don't want to upset anyone but my suspicion is that there's a degree of family myth here. It may be that there wasn't really any form of marriage between Philip Tobin and Mary E Watson although he might well have been the biological father. One thing that might bear fruit is to search local magistrates court records for a maintenance order. I can't recall what the closure period might be but a Freedom of Information request would be OK providing the records are extant. Bedfordshire & Luton Archives would have to be consulted.

  6. #16
    Coromandel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Goodey View Post
    There is also the mysterious marriage of Mary E Watson or Brown -

    Marriages Dec 1946
    Watson Mary E Harrower Luton 4a 380
    Brown Mary E Harrower Luton 4a 380
    According to New York passenger lists on Ancestry, Lindsay Proctor Harrower (26, b. Edinburgh) arrived in New York on 15 April 1948 with his wife Mary Eileen (26, b. Luton). So the Mary E. Watson/Brown who married Lindsay Harrower was not a Mary Elizabeth. It looks like the marriage did not last: she is back in the Luton area marrying again in 1955, whereas Lindsay P. Harrower (b. 21 August 1921 Scotland) died 30 July 1964 Los Angeles according to the California Death Index on Ancestry.

  7. #17
    Coromandel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Goodey View Post
    As I see it, bergman93 said in message #4:
    “Father - Philip Tobin b1914 Hartlepool...
    Though there is a Philip Tobin birth registration in the Hartlepool district in 1914 (mother's maiden name Wilson),
    I am not convinced this is the same Philip who was later in the Luton area. There is a death registration of a Philip Tobin in the Luton district in March 1988. The GRO index gives the date of birth of this man as 18 December 1905.

    I can't see a corresponding birth registration on FreeBMD (i.e. in England/Wales) or see him on the 1911 census in England/Wales, but there are a couple of possibilities on the 1911 census for Ireland.

    bergman93, can you confirm the date and place of your father's death?

  8. #18
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    So the Mary E. Watson/Brown who married Lindsay Harrower was not a Mary Elizabeth
    Jolly good. That's one thing that doesn't need to be pursued.

  9. #19
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    More on whether bigamous marriages still appear in the GRO indexes...

    Google Groups threw up this reply to a similar question in 2008...

    It is certainly the case at the GRO for England and Wales that even if a
    marriage is subsequently discovered to be bigamous, the record of the
    marriage remains forever, both as a certificate and in the indexes. I
    imagine it must be the same at the Scottish GRO.

    I have personally uncovered a number of bigamous marriages, both in
    cases that were not discovered (except by me) and also in cases where
    there was a subsequent prosecution. Why would the marriage record be
    removed, in any case? The fact is that the marriage took place and
    whether it was bigamous does not alter that historical fact!

    One bigamous marriage I uncovered was that of the great-grandfather of
    Dame Judi Dench, George Joseph Dench, who underwent a bigamous
    marriage at Kensington in 1887 when he had a legal wife still alive in
    Weymouth, Dorset. I wrote about this in a published article on bigamy in
    Your Family Tree magazine in 2006. However, this bigamy was never
    discovered until I looked into it.

    Another case concerned an Anglican clergyman, the Rev Harry Lloyd
    Bickerstaffe, who bigamously married a young woman in Cambridgeshire
    in 1859. In that instance the case came up in Leeds, Yorkshire, where he
    was currently living and working. He got sent to Dartmoor Prison. There
    was an unusual outcome to this case, since he did his "porridge", came
    out and remarried the bigamous wife, Anna Maria Campbell, legally at
    Kenilworth, Warwickshire, in 1862, after his first wife had divorced him!
    You will find the Rev Bickerstaffe in the marriage indexes at FreeBMD in
    both 1859 and 1862. The first marriage at Linton, Cambridgeshire, was
    illicit and bigamous, the second was not. However, both are still there in
    the indexes to this day, and why not? As I've said, even if a marriage is
    subsequently proved to be bigamous it cannot be removed from the
    records, nor should it be.

    --
    Roy Stockdill
    Professional genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer

  10. #20
    bergman93
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    Hi Judyg, sorry I've been a while responding, I've been away. In answer to your questions, I have the birth certificates for both Mary E Randell (Randall) - the spelling changes frequently! and Philip Tobin. I also have a copy of my own BC and the father's name has been left blank. I know 'family stories' are prone to change but Philip Tobin was well known to my family and several members of the family knew him until his death. I, on the other hand, never even knew his name until after my mother's death. There is also another family connection, oh heaven this is complicated!!! Oddly enough he was brother to an aunt by marriage (making her an aunt by blood too!) This would be how my mother met him, because he was staying with his sister in the same road, the sister being married to my mother's brother!!!

    My mother told me that two policemen came to the house to arrest him whilst she was pregnant with me. He was apparently taken to court and convicted (don't know the sentence) but he was also taken to court for child maintenance (don't know what it was called when I was young) but he paid up - the money being taken from his wages every week until I reached the age of 16. Whether there was only one court appearance to 2, I'm afraid I don't know. How I wish I'd asked questions before it was too late.

    Thank you all for being so helpful.

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