Newman - Brickwall

[Mutley]

When Hilda Lillian, one of the children of Thomas and Phoebe was born on 19 Mar 1905 they were living in the workhouse at Lambeth. I do not know if those records are available or would shed any light on the background of Thomas.

[Kerrywood]

When Hilda Lillian, one of the children of Thomas and Phoebe was born on 19 Mar 1905 they were living in the workhouse at Lambeth. I do not know if those records are available or would shed any light on the background of Thomas.

Well spotted, Mutley!

Lambeth workhouse records are available at London Metropolitan Archives. If Phoebe was admitted just to give birth, the records may be sparse or non-existent, but it would be worth a look.

Some Lambeth workhouse records are available online in Ancestry's London poor law records database. These are browsable but not searchable.

A handful of pages of the register of births for the Renfrew Road workhouse in Lambeth are included in Ancestry's London Births/Baptisms database. They are misfiled, misindexed, and tacked onto some baptism records in 1859 at the church of St Dunstan in the East in the City of London. .

Accordingly, the date of birth for Hilda Lilian NEWMAN is misindexed there as 19 Mar 1859, though the image shows the entry under 1905. Though incomplete, it also shows the father as George Thomas NEWMAN, which may provide another search option.

[Kerrywood]

If Phoebe was admitted just to give birth, the records may be sparse or non-existent, but it would be worth a look.

According to the creed register for the Renfrew Road workhouse in Lambeth, Phoebe was admitted on 19 March 1905 from Richmond Cottage, Richmond Street. She gave birth to Hilda the same day. Both were discharged at own request on 3 April 1905, to Richmond Cottage, Richmond Street.
Source: London, England, Poor Law Records, 1834-1940
Lambeth > Lambeth > Religious Creed > Renfrew Road Workhouse: Creed Register,1900-1908 > images 1611 & 1612

Richmond Cottage, Richmond Street, can be found ...
1901 - RG13/407 folio 31 page 54 - surnames CHAPMAN, GREEN, GIBBS, BIRMINGHAM
1911 - RG14/1963 SN 214
(records held by TNA, Crown copyright)

As two of the surnames found there in 1901 also appear there in 1911, these may be worth further investigation.

I'm off out now and will leave others to run with this, if there's any mileage in it.

[Coromandel]

A handful of pages of the register of births for the Renfrew Road workhouse in Lambeth are included in Ancestry's London Births/Baptisms database. They are misfiled, misindexed, and tacked onto some baptism records in 1859 at the church of St Dunstan in the East in the City of London. .

Accordingly, the date of birth for Hilda Lilian NEWMAN is misindexed there as 19 Mar 1859, though the image shows the entry under 1905. Though incomplete, it also shows the father as George Thomas NEWMAN, which may provide another search option.

Now why didn't I think of looking in 1859 St Dunstan in the East records for a 1905 Lambeth baptism? Silly me

Well done Kerrywood for knowing where to look.

[Kerrywood]

Coromandel, I wish I did know where to look for these sorts of things -- it would save a heck of a lot of time!

I found it by chance, searching for baptisms of any children surnamed Ne*m* to parents Tho* and Ph*b*, or Geo* and Ph*b*.

[dozeyden]

There are 2 Thomas George Newman's born 1878

One in West Bromwich and the other in Dover.

His birth record may not include the George - some did record middle names, some did not.
Many people reversed them.

Census ages were not always correct so 1878 might not be his real birth year.

May have been born Belvedere

Thomas Newmans born 1876-1880 in Kent reveals these

Births Sep 1877
NEWMAN Thomas Gravesend 2a 437
Births Dec 1877
Newman Thomas William Malling 2a 549
Births Dec 1878
NEWMAN Thomas George Dover 2a 935
Births Sep 1879
Newman Thomas Herbert Greenwich 1d 916

I would say the Gravesend one is your man.

Don't know if I have put this in the right place as new to it all.

Would like to say thank you for everyone for all your information, it has been great. Yes, I was aware of Phoebe having a child in the Lambeth workhouse, did wonder whether Thomas may have been a porter working there at the time perhaps. Wasnt sure where to go from that information.
I have unfortunately just finished a subscription to ancestry and thinking perhaps of going to Findmypast for a short while hoping to find perhaps more records there. Anyone know if this would be a good move or should I stick to ancestry?
Need to digest some of the information everyone has given me, interested in the record of the birth of Hilda Lilian in the workhouse and the parent being George Thomas instead of Thomas George.
Have followed the Dover link and it didnt tie in with the information on his father. Followed one of the censuses which has him with a brother and sister only in London also a mother of Rhoda and a mother of Margaret. Didnt seem to get anywhere with those.
Mystery where Thomas was on the censuses before his marriage, beginning to wonder if Arthur George was his dad and if he had been a deceased constable. As mentioned sometimes people put things down to hide facts eg illegitimacy.
Thanking you all once again for helping, it has given me a bit more to think about.

[dozeyden]

Well spotted, Mutley!

Lambeth workhouse records are available at London Metropolitan Archives. If Phoebe was admitted just to give birth, the records may be sparse or non-existent, but it would be worth a look.

Some Lambeth workhouse records are available online in Ancestry's London poor law records database. These are browsable but not searchable.

A handful of pages of the register of births for the Renfrew Road workhouse in Lambeth are included in Ancestry's London Births/Baptisms database. They are misfiled, misindexed, and tacked onto some baptism records in 1859 at the church of St Dunstan in the East in the City of London. .

Accordingly, the date of birth for Hilda Lilian NEWMAN is misindexed there as 19 Mar 1859, though the image shows the entry under 1905. Though incomplete, it also shows the father as George Thomas NEWMAN, which may provide another search option.

Hilda Lilian Newman is a guess as one of the deceased children on the 1911 census. I know they lost Phoebe Gladys Newman as her death record was on Thomas' military records. I shall have to try to find the record you have mentioned under 1859. Thank you

[dozeyden]

This is a possibility:
Thomas Newman. b1879 Holland. Hotel servant in St Luke. London.
1901 census crown copyright TNA RG13 260/6/4

Perhaps the witnesses are also working in the same hotel.

The witnesses to their marriage were H Taylor whom I presume was either Harriet (Hetty) or Henry Taylor whom Phoebe was bought up with but not sure about the A Kirkland. Did try following that route but didnt get anything.

[Mutley]

You mentioned finding a Thomas as the son of a Margaret.
I looked long and hard and this family and I am still wondering but was not convinced enough to post it.

Going from memory....
Margaret Newman was born in 1841 in Cork, Ireland. She was a widow for several census but appeared later with children though still a widow.
Children were Thomas, Mary Ann and (I think) William. I could not make out who would have been the father to these children. Where were they in the census prior to the one she was in with them. Sorry, I did not keep notes but I still wonder if they might be worth further research. Your Thomas George named a child Mary Ann, though that means nothing, or does it?

I am sure Thomas/George was not telling the truth on his marriage certificate to Phoebe.

[Mutley]

Don't know if I have put this in the right place as new to it all.


I have unfortunately just finished a subscription to ancestry and thinking perhaps of going to Findmypast for a short while hoping to find perhaps more records there. Anyone know if this would be a good move or should I stick to ancestry?

Tis as good a place as any, don't worry, you are doing fine.


Each of the sites has information that could be useful to you. Ancestry has the London baptisms and other London info, FMP has the 1911, it is a difficult choice to make these days.