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  1. #11
    annrosemary
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    Hi Janet

    I'm also interested in this group of people and have been trying to put a lot of bits of information together to make sense of things. The Walter Allen aged 15 was my gg grandfather. Do you have any more information of William Smith - do you know his wifes maiden name etc.,

    Bye for now
    Ann

  2. #12
    Dizzy600
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    Did you watch WDYTYA last week? (if not, you can watch it on iplayer). It covered circus and fairs. It maybe worthwhile contacting Sheffield University as they have an Archive dept for fairs/circus's. I have sent them an email in the past and they are very helpful.
    Good luck.

    Karen

  3. #13
    sgjenning
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    Hello from a newbie!

    A11an said: "Thomas H Allen B 1867 is the Son of John Roworth Allen B 1839 to George Allen B 1815 and his second wife Elizabeth Hazeldine B 1835"

    I'm trying to research the Allens because John Roworth was my great-grandfather through his daughter Lilian - I'm afraid I'm rather confused, who was Elizabeth Hazeldine married to? I can't find any records of a Hazeldine-Allen marriage which appear to be relevant.

    Thanks for your help.

  4. #14

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    Hello sgjenning

    I will try to find the answer to your question.

    I am not currently researching our family tree so will have to look back through the data we have on file.

    But I remember it all gets very mixed up on that side of the family and threw us off track for a very long time.

    Regards Paul

  5. #15

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    Hi sgjenning

    Welcome to the world of tracing Circus families

    Quickly checking my family tree I have found that John Roworth Allen and Henry Allen were sons of the marriage between George Allen and Elizabeth Ordish .

    We can only guess that Elizabeth Ordish died and Goerge Allen didn’t marry his next partner Elizabeth Hazzeldine. They went on to have 8 Children, one of, which was Walter Allen being my GG Grandfather.

    So John Roworth Allen and Walter Allen were half brothers, it is believed that my GG grandfather Walter Allen was given to John Rowoth Allen at A very early age, and was performing in the Circus at 3 years of age.

    Another fact that leads us to believe that my GG Grandfather Walter Allen didn’t really know who his father was, John Roworth Allen signed my GG Grandfathers marriage certificate as his father but he really was his half brother.

    Maybe you can help with a surname that is missing off our tree?

    John Roworth Allen had children by three women

    Eliza Pots who had 4 children
    Anne Settikia (unknown Surname) who had 5 children one was Lillian Allen 1890
    (Unknowm Name) had one child Albert Allen 1892

    Regards Paul

  6. #16

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    London Gazette https://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search

    The search key "smith atrato" in the box "with the exact phrase" returns 3 hits about change of ownership 1878 - 1881.

  7. #17

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    thank you helachau

    thats linked a few things up

  8. #18
    sgjenning
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    Hi Paul. Sorry it's taken me so long to reply. Thanks so much for your information: I didn't know George Allen & Elizabeth Ordish had 8 children, I've found only 3 so far: John Rowarth (or Roworth) 1839-1918, Frederick b1841, & Henry b1842-3. I'd love to know who the others were.

    I've found 4 sons for Eliza Potts: Thomas H b1866, Francis W b1871, Frederick C b1875, & John George b1879 (approx). Does this match up with your info?

    'Anne Setikia' is actually Annie Letitia Holdsworth, b1859 in Ballarat, Australia. Annie's father, Henry Holdsworth (b1831) probably went to Australia for the gold rush. He travelled on the 'Frances Henty', arriving in Australia in August 1852. He & Letitia Cundy (b1838 in Penzance, Cornwall), married in Australia in 1858. As far as I know, they had two children: Robert (b&d1858) & Annie Letitia. Henry died in Australia in 1860.

    Letitia & Annie returned to England: they settled initially in Plymouth, where Letitia remarried twice, in 1862 to Edmund Henry Garlick (he died in 1870), then in 1876 to John Guppy. (Letitia & John were still married in 1911, & appear on the census in Finedon, Northamptonshire.)

    The Guppys & Annie moved from Plymouth to Derby, where Annie married James Brandreth in 1878. The 1881 census shows the Brandreths and the Guppys in the same household. Annie & James Brandreth had one son that I know of, James Edwin, b1881 (d1962 in Peterborough). I cannot find any record of James Brandreth after the 1881 census, so he's a bit of a mystery. James Edwin was apparently in an orphanage in Liverpool for a while, but Annie reclaimed him & he was baptized in Bradford at the same time as her first child with John Rowarth Allen.

    I have not found any marriage record for Annie & John R, but she was definitely with him by 1886: their daughter Annie Beatrice was baptized on 17 July 1887 in Bradford (along with Edwin J Brandreth). At some time between then & July 1890, the family relocated to Northampton. They had two further children that I know of: Lilian (1890-1973), who was my paternal grandmother, & Albert (b1891). I would be delighted to have information about any other children they had.

    I've been unable to find a death record for Annie (I don't know which surname she would have been registered under) but John R was a widower by the time of the 1901 census, which shows John & Letitia Guppy, and James Edwin Brandreth, as members of his household in Duston, Northamptonshire.

    I had not heard about a third wife / partner, how did you discover her?

    John R had a varied career after leaving the circus: he is listed in census records as Gas Engineer Retired (1891) & Gas Fitter (1901), I haven't yet been able to establish his whereabouts in 1911. On his daughter Lilian's marriage certificates (she married twice, being widowed in WW1) he is recorded as Porter at Theatre (1914) & Joiner (1916). He & Lilian must have fallen out between the two weddings, as he is shown as 'deceased' in 1916, but his death certificate shows he died in 1918, at a pub in Northampton, of 'senile decay'. Sad.

  9. #19
    cleverclogs
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    Hello sg,
    You are correct in that George Allen and Elizabeth Ann Ordish had only 3 children - John Roworth (1839 - 1918), Frederick (1841 - 1879) and Henry (1843 - ) George's other children were to his 2nd "wife" Elizabeth Hazledine.

    John and Ann Letitia (2nd wife) also had only 3 children as you thought - Annie Beatrice, Lilian and Albert. As Albert was born late 1891 and Ann died early 1896, it is not likely she had another child without it appearing on the 1901 census along with Albert.
    Ann's death was registered under the name of Annie Allen, 1896, Wellingborough, Northamptonshire.

    John R did not marry again. In 1911 John was living at 18 Victoria Gardens, Northampton with a "Jennie" Allen (handwriting is poor). On the census she fills her part in as wife, married 16 years and no children, leaving place of birth blank John fills his in as lodger, widower, 7 children, hall keeper in theatre, born in St. Werburgh. He also crosses out her "Wife" and writes in "Head" Someone then adds Northampton under John's place of birth and draws arrows to the wrong places. (Give me strength!) It looks like she is not a close relation but could be a slightly removed one.

  10. #20

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    Hi sgjennings

    Thank you for all the information you posted

    I am passing all the information on to my cousin who is the person that's been researching our family tree, as you may of guessed I am only the go for, so do get some info wrong at times.

    I’ve had a look back at my (not the full family tree) and can say you are correct with you info about George Allen marriage to Elizabeth Ordish having only three Children.

    John R, Fredrick and Henry Allen.

    The Children from George Allen and Elizabeth Hazeldine

    James, Charles, Mary, Tom, Walter and Louisa Allen.

    My GG-Grandfather Walter Allen (Equestrian and Clown) Known as Nimble Nip was given to John R Allen by George Allen at a very early age so Walter Allen thought that he was his father.

    John R Allen appears on the Marriage certificate of Walter Allen to Annie Louisa Punderson, as his father, which didn’t help in our research

    John R Allen and Walter Allen were actually half brothers having the same father George Allen but different Mothers.

    I am a descendant from Water Allen who had a son Walter George Allen who in turn had a son Walter George Allen (my Father)

    So we are both descendants of George Allen and I guess related in some way, but I will leave that side up to my cousin

    Kind Regards Paul Allen

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