Death John LORIMER c 1860ish in North Riding

[AnnieBailey]

Hi all, my first posting!

I have been at this 'brickwall' for about 3 years now! Nearly ready to chuck it all in when I found this wonderful site! I am not sure how I should write this up, so I ask your indulgence if I ramble.

I have tracked back my Lorimer family to John Lorimer married to Isobel Bushby May 21st 1792 in Catterick, North Riding Yorkshire. I know this from their son Thomas' (born 5th April 1795 Richmond near Leyburn) death certificate (1864 Larkfield, Dumfries).
This is where I am stuck because I can't find a record of either of their deaths, I guess because I am not sure if they died in Scotland or England? I don't really want to go back further until I can prove I have the right parents for John Lorimer, and I am hoping a death certificate will give me that.
I do have one clue.
In Thomas' will (their son who lived and died in Dumfries), it itemises interests he had in England, in Liverpool and Birkenhead, as being indorsed in May 1861. I am wondering if that might mean these shares and interests in railways etc were bequeathed to him by his father (John) at his death? or am I being over-imaginative?
Well I DO know that John Lorimer was still alive in 1800 when his daughter Mary was born to him and Isobel (Isabella) in Richmond near Leyburn.
I DO know that John Lorimer and Isabella were deceased in 1864 when his son (Thomas) died in Dumfries. So sometime between 1800 and 1864 with a good possible around 1861 seems a start, but I have not been able to find anything.
I wonder if there is anybody kind enough to have a look around for me?
The family I am looking for is John Lorimer & Isobel (Isabella) Lorimer with children Jane, Thomas, and Robert, (Mary died in 1805). One other thing, some of the children were listed as Lorrimer as compared to Lorimer.
Have I made all this too complicated?? sorry, I am so excited that I might be about to get a breakthrough!
In anticipation of being able to thank somebody,
Annie

[MarkJ]

So John died somewhere between 1800 and 1864? That is a fair old range - and of course covers a fair amount of pre-Civil registration time.

Have you found him on any census for example, which may narrow down the timescale a bit!

Mark

Edit: No sign of any suitable John on 1841 census in England, so perhaps deceased by then or living in Scotland?
Bearing in mind the marriage was 1792, and if we say he was about 20 years old, then he was born around 1772 so by 1841 he would have been 69 or more.

I couldn't find any Isabel or Isabella in 1841 either.

[AnnieBailey]

Hi Mark!
And herein lies the problem, lol
Any wonder I am stuck, I had no luck either with the census.
The only things I really know is that John's son Thomas definately ends up in Scotland (as of 1826 at the age of 31yrs, when he married Catharine Wilkin). Thos son James, goes to Liverpool in 1853 and then onto Australia in 1856. In the 1861 census, I have James' sister Isabella (Lorimer) Rome in Liverpool with husband William Rome, visitors James Lorimer and wife and couple kids from Australia. I am thinking maybe John Lorimer died in Liverpool, but I have no real reason to say this, apart from the fact that his g'son James Lorimer went to Liverpool from Dumfries when he was 19 years old to be articled as a clerk with a softgoods firm.
Appreciate your help Mark.

[Waitabit]

AnnieBailey, was your John Lorimer a Grocer at all ever? perhaps in 1858
The London Gazette has articles relating to the bankruptcy of a John Lorimer ,Grocer of yorkshire Street Rochdale in 4 separate articles. page 4642..1239 etc. filed on the 24th day of Feb. 1858.

Perhaps not your chap?

[AnnieBailey]

Hi Waitabit,
Well I really don't know. I had imagined he was a gentleman, at least, lol. His son was a landowner (Nether Locharwoods) in Dumfries with all sorts of interests and shares in Railways etc, so I had always assumed that John would be a gentleman as well. But, as I said, I know so little about John Lorimer as yet.

[Waitabit]

Fret not, sure to be more than one John Lorimer? search on shall we all? Quite likely, those just getting aboutabit may have more to offer.
goodmorning all?

er, his Son may have become,.. all on his own merits, not necessarily from Fathers hand ons. ( I read lot's of early 'warm & fuzzy 'books, which are really quite brutal at times)

[pwholt]

There are three John LORIMERs listed in the PCC wills at the National Archives ( none for Lorrimer), up to 1858 when the series ends. These were a doctor of medicine in the 24th Regt of Foot of Carlisle, Cumberland, 1839, Battman John Lorimer of Saint John Stret, Bedfordshire 1820, and a gentleman of Walthamstow, Essex in 1805. Checking the same source again for just LORIMER I found four for Scottish men and one for Charles an insurance broker of Liverpool in 1844. It could be worth checking out the Scottish ones as there may be a connection with your family. The probate in English church courts suggests they had holdings in England as well as Scotland. pw

[Geoffers]

Welcome to the B-G forums

I have tracked back my Lorimer family to John Lorimer married to Isobel Bushby May 21st 1792 in Catterick, North Riding Yorkshire.

From the marriage register, is there any other useful information provided? e.g. is John LOR(R)IM(O/E)R shown as being from a different place? Was the marriage by licence or banns? Who were the witnesses - any relatives? Was John single/widowed?

I know this from their son Thomas' (born 5th April 1795 Richmond near Leyburn) death certificate (1864 Larkfield, Dumfries).

Is there a surviving memorial inscription for Thomas? Was he buried in a family plot, or near other LOR(R)IM(O/E)R graves?

I don't really want to go back further until I can prove I have the right parents for John Lorimer, and I am hoping a death certificate will give me that.

Bearing in mind the connection with Dumfriesshire - is this will related to your chap? -
John LORIMER d1786 of Sanqhuar

Could this be the father of your John who married in 1792? Perhaps it mentions other relatives who can be traced and connected to John (e.g. witnesses ar marriage)

In Thomas' will (their son who lived and died in Dumfries), it itemises interests he had in England, in Liverpool and Birkenhead, as being indorsed in May 1861.

Any mention of the family in directories, or poll books?

As suggested by others, if the family was in business, is there any mention in either the London or Edinburgh Gazette?

[AnnieBailey]

Hi pw,
This bit here ...

Checking the same source again for just LORIMER I found four for Scottish men and one for Charles an insurance broker of Liverpool in 1844. It could be worth checking out the Scottish ones as there may be a connection with your family. The probate in English church courts suggests they had holdings in England as well as Scotland. pw

I think you are right about that, So excuse my ignorance, but do I search for the Scottish ones on PCC as well? and then order the wills? When you say "the probate in English church courts suggests they had holdings in England as well as Scotland" are you referring to the fact that they are on PCC?

I really should be able to find him, there are so few John Lorimer wills on there
many thanks pw

[AnnieBailey]

Hi Geoffers,

pheww! let me see if I can answer sensibly to all the helpful questions without looking too stupid lol.

1. To be honest, I can't even remember where I found the marriage of John Lorimer and Isobel Bushby! So I can't add much to that. I know they are Thomas' parents because they are on his death certificate. As is the fact that Thomas was stated as being born in Yorkshire on his death cert.
2. I havn't been able to find where Thomas was buried, I only know that he died at "Larkfield" Dumfries. (I did order his will, that gave me quite a lot of info. It was 28 pages long!)
3. I actually have a lead on John's parents, as a Matthew Lorimer and Mary Bell in Dumfries, but until I find John's death details listing his parents I am not happy to assume anything.
4. I haven't been able to find any mention of John Lorimer (that I can confirm as the same one that married Isobel) since the birth of his daughter Mary in 1800. Mary died in 1805 in Richmond, Yorkshire, but that doesn't really mean that John was even still alive then.

So all in all, I am not much help here! This is why I have come to the experts for help. I really have hit a brick wall.

I am beginning to think that I am just going to have to throw caution (and way too much money) to the wind, and purchase all the John Lorimer wills I can find. Yikes! Didn't want to do it.

While I have you, can you tell me how to get access to the 1841 and 1861 census of England and Scotland? Maybe I might be able to find him in there?

Anyway, many thanks from Annie