Date help if possible please....

[Rachandgarry]

Hi all,

This is my second photo I need help with, sorry. When I wasn't sure if I could post more than one photo help request, I posted this photo on a different forum and someone 'cleaned' the photo which was really kind, but no-one has replied to the question of when the photo is from. I don't know if that is because it is too hard to tell, or if the board just isn't as busy. (Its probably irrelevant but I wanted to be upfront and not look like I was playing forums off against each other or something lol.)

front:


back:


I have *no* idea who this man is, what time he is from or what he does. I think it is my mum's writing on the back (she passed away unfortunately so I can't ask her), it seems to say "C/D Clark". My great-grandmother was Beatrice Ethel Clark, so the surname does fit but I am not sure who he is. Beatrice's father was William Joseph Clark, born 1854. Any ideas if this could be him?

I have looked for clues such as information on the photographers or studio, and it seems (if I am right) that Henry Ward was the photographer but his studio was there until 1931 which seems way too late, changing hands to his son (also called Henry!) at some point...

The actual photo is about 2.5" x 3.5" which could make it a CDV?

I have read about men's fashion but I can't tell if the suit he is wearing is a 'morning suit' or a frock coat. I notice he has a bowler hat but can't find any solid information on when they were popular to be worn with the rest of his outfit. I don't know if the chain thing across his waistcoat is significant or if the chair in the picture can help at all?

All opinions would be welcome, thank you for looking.

Rachel x
P.S. To tie this in to the rest of my family that some of you may know of, Beatrice Clark married Alfred George Cresswell Selwyn, son of Alfred Cresswell Selwyn and Lucy King.

[jeeb]

Hi Rachandgarry,
This photo and style of dress looks mid 1880s. The young man is aged about 25. There is an 1881 census enrty that I think stands a good chance of being this man:-

RG11/823 Folio 60 Page 58
Penge, Surrey
Charles D Clark 24 brother Member of Stock Exchange born Peckham.


Penge is relatively close to Croydon.


Jeremy

[jeeb]

Hi Rachandgarry,
I notice you said your great grandmother's father was William Joseph Clark born 1854. This Charles D Clark I have given you the 1881 reference for has a brother William H Clark born 1854.


Jeremy

[malcolm99]

I wonder though if it’s not this William Clark [RG11/849 Folio 50 Page 43] at 4, Eden Road, Beckenham in 1881 as he is described as a brickmaker born in Hampshire and on the 1891 Census this fits in nicely with William Joseph Clark, pipe & tile maker, born Fareham and living in the Croydon area and subsequently in Wrotham. West Croydon station would be very easy to get to from Eden Road in Elmers End.

malcolm99

[malcolm99]

Just a further thought. As William Joseph Clark was living in Harrington Road, South Norwood in 1891, he would be very close to the large Brick Works in Woodside. We can assume he would be living in the South Norwood area during the 1880s and West Croydon would be a natural place to go to shop, get photographed etc. (These are all old stamping grounds of mine!).

malcolm99

[Rachandgarry]

Hiya

Thank you for your help. I'm just trying to digest/process the information (it takes me a while to get my head around it!).

The Clarks in my tree follow this path:

1851 census: John and Elizabeth Clark, West Street, Fareham. Children Sarah and James. John is a tilemaker's labourer.
1861 census: as above, same address. Children have changed slightly, William Joseph is now there, aged 7. John is a tilemaker.
1871 census: as above, 12 West End Terrace, Fareham. William still there. John is now a greengrocer, but William is a tilemaker.
1881 census: William Clark, age 27, is a lodger at 4 Eden Road Beckenham Kent. He is listed as a brickmaker.
1883: marries Mary Ann Mead (aka Mary Hannah Mead) in Beckenham Kent.
1891 census: William and Mary Clark with son William Samuel, Pascalls Pottery, Harrington Road South Norwood/Croydon. He is listed as a pipe and tile maker.
1901 census: as above plus daughter Beatrice Ethel. Address is "Bassets, St Mary Platt, Wrotham, Kent". He is listed as a pipe and tile maker but 'brickmaker' has been written in as well.
1911 census: William and Mary Clark, with daughter Beatrice Ethel but William Samuel has left home. William is listed as a gardener/labourer at Crystal Palace.

Can anyone make any sense of their life and how it would fit with this photo? I am totally baffled and haven't found that affinity to their story that I have with other parts of my tree, which is making it hard to understand their movements etc. This photo has peaked my curiosity!

Thank you again,
Rachel x

[jeeb]

Hi Rachel,
Now here is something interesting.

You said William Clark was in Beckenham Kent in 1881 and married Mary Hannah Mead there in 1883. I suggested that the photograph was of Charles D Clark who was born in 1857 at Peckham and in 1881 he a 24 year old bachelor living Penge. In 1891 this Charles D. Clark is married to an Emily and has two children born Beckenham, they are living in Beckenham in 1891. I suggest you try and find a connection. Incidentally Charles D Clarks' parents were John & Lucinda.

Jeremy

[Chris Doran]

In case you haven't seen this, from St George's (Beckenham) Marriage Register at Bromley Local Studies:-

Page 153: 14th October 1883.
William Joseph Clark (bachelor, brickmaker) to Mary Ann Mead (spinster, no occupation shown), both of Beckenham.
Fathers: John Clark (greengrocer) and William Mead (soldier).
Witnesses: William & Emily Judge.

I couldn't see a baptism of son William Samuel at St George's, but if he was born when they were living at Pascall's Pottery, they would be in a different parish, St Mark's, South Norwood (records may be at Croydon Local Studies Library).

According to local directories, Pascall's Pottery was near the Harrington Road entrance to Beckenham Crematorium & Cemetery (aka Crystal Palace or Elmers End Cemetery), but I've yet to find it on a map. It was less than a mile from Eden Road, which is in the Elmers End district of Beckenham. But the whole surrounding area was rapidly building at the time, and there were several brickworks, not to mention baking bricks on site from the clay dug out of the foundations.

It he was at the Crystal Palace in 1911, he probably worked on the Festival of Empire, which was a major exhibition and must have recruited many extra staff.

As to the photo, I suspect "C/D" is something other than initials, as they aren't usually separated by a slash, but the doubtful best I can come up with is a photographer's note "cash on delivery". It is just possible that Croydon Local Studies can tell you what years Wards used that particular CDV back. They may also have some information on Pascall's Pottery.