Robert and Mary POOLE

[spison]

I have finally admitted defeat with Robert and Mary Poole and their daughter, Margaret (my husband’s great grandmother). I’m sorry that this is long but I’ve put in everything that I have that is relevant. While the couple in question died in Sydney, NSW, the solution to this problem is in England. These are the questions I can’t answer:
1. Is the marriage certificate I have detailed below probably them or definitely not them?
2. Who is Robert? I can’t find him in 1851. The only shipwright I’ve found is at HO107 1633/166 p14 (image copyright by TNA) who isn’t a bachelor and was probably on the ‘Delhi’ in 1861 (RG9 4502/99).
3. Who is Mary? She may or may not have been in England at the time of the census.
4. I can’t find this Robert and Mary Pool/e in 1861. Can anyone else?
5. How old are these people? I have looked on the IGI, The Lancashire OPC and FreeREG to see if there may be more info on the marriage – no luck.
6. Where can I search now or is this the end?

This is what I have from the documents. There are no birth documents as 2 of their 3 daughters (and probably all of them) were born in Sydney before compulsory registration and weren’t baptized. Their names came from Mary’s death certificate. Their oldest child, Nancy, was born in 1853 – probably in Sydney and almost certainly in Australia. I only know about Margaret (the middle child born 1855) who in 1867 was placed in the Newcastle Industrial School (NLA Newspapers– child under 16 in the company of prostitutes ‘half starved and neglected’ - aged 12 – article tagged) and baptized in Newcastle, NSW in February 1869. She says her father was a carpenter.

Robert was the informant at the death of his wife, Mary in 1860. She was 50, born in Ireland and had been a resident of NSW for 30 years! They had married in England when Mary was 42 (about 1852). He didn’t know her maiden name (suggesting she was a widow in 1852). She was one of the first burials in the St George Burial ground (now St George’s, Hurstville). Witnesses were not family members. The burial register has been lost.

Mary had been a resident of NSW ‘for 30 years’ so about 1830 she arrived in Australia for the first time. It is possible that she originally was a convict and in 1852 returned to her original place of residence in Sydney. I don’t know if she was definitely in England at the time of the 1851C. I haven’t tried to trace all the Mary Mortons from 1851.

The informant for Robert’s death in September 1872 was the coroner. (NLA Newspapers - drowned in the George’s River – under the influence of rum – article tagged). The coroner said that Robert was 60, had lived in the colony of NSW for over 20 years and that he had 3 daughters. He listed Robert’s occupation as a bush carpenter. He (somehow) named Robert’s parents as John Poole and Margaret Dundelin yet was unable to correctly name his wife and didn’t name the daughters but recorded that they were still alive. The Inquest papers for 1872 no longer exist (there is an index… but it’s just an index. I’ve seen it.). There is no way of knowing where his information came from and some of it is questionable. Robert was one of the first burials in Rocky Point Cemetery (St Paul’s, Kogarah). The witnesses were not family members. The burial register has been lost.

There are very few marriages in England of a Robert Pool/e to a Mary in 1851 or 1852. I have purchased the marriage certificate of Robert Pool and Mary Morton which I guessed was the best for the timing of the birth of Nancy and the arrival period. This certificate looks promising but doesn’t match exactly. Knowing the participant’s ages might help. Robert and Mary were married by license at St Michael’s, Toxteth in the Parish of Walton on the Hill in Lancashire on 12 January 1852. They were ‘both of full age’. Robert was a shipwright and a bachelor. His father was Robert (dec.) and he lived in Mann St, Toxteth. Mary was a widow and her father was Charles Leonard (dec.). She lived in Robertson Street (no further information given). She made her mark. Robert signed. I have looked for both these streets in the Liverpool 1851 street index and can’t find either although there is a Mann location in Liverpool.

I know that Robert’s occupation and father’s name don’t match. I am trying to consider the possible problems with his death certificate and with the couple living in this area of Sydney at this time in Australia’s history. I can’t even be sure that this couple married and I can’t be sure that they were honest. Their biography I’ve created from their life in Australia is not pretty. Aussie researchers (especially): Am I grasping at straws?

I have done some extensive work on trying to eliminate Robert Pool/es born between 1795 and 1815 on censuses from 1841 to 1861 (using Ancestry). I can post this information but it confuses me and I don’t want to confuse this issue any further. I have looked at the only other marriage of a Robert Pool/e to a Mary during 1851 and 1852 (Mary Davies: Dec 1852 Shrewsbury 6a 1201) but am yet to order it. I can’t find this couple in 1861 either. I do have a possible arrival of a Robert and Mary Poole but detailing it may also muddy the water.

I hope someone is able to help in any way no matter how small.
Jane

[carolchipp]

Blimey, Jane - no wonder you're ready to give up! It's all a bit confusing. If I have understood you correctly, the only documentation you're sure of is from the death certs. My first thought was that Charles Leonard isn't a very irish name. There is a June 1853 marriage (Bedminster) for a Robert Poole and Mary Ann Creane (which at least is irish). I don't have a sub at the moment so can't check if they're still in England on the 1861. It could be the '30 years' was a mistake - it could also be that Mary was either a widow, or conveniently dumped the first husband to marry Robert. What date is your possible arrival? If it's the only one you can find, it might be better to work from that first.

[susan-y]

My goodness!
What a tale of "ifs" and "maybes"
I'm afraid I only have more questions..
1. If Mary was in Australia all that time, how do you figure they married in England? ( Or did I miss that somewhere in the tale?)
2. The daughter Margaret that was in the company of prostitutes..was she also a prostitute or was she with Mom who was a prostitute... or her older sister?
Back to my first question...that is the one I wonder about the most. I know Poole is a common name and seemingly hard to trace.. I have some on my tree.

Sue

[spison]

Carol and Sue, Thanks for the fast replies.
To clarify:
1. The only records that exist that are known to refer to my Mary and Robert are their death certificates and I have taken over a year to locate the correct ones. (The records for the Newcastle Industrial School are also lost.)
2. Mary had been dead for 7 years by the time Margaret was 'arrested'. She was only ever in company with and no actually 'participating'. I suspect that the older sister was working in the house but she probably could have passed for 16 (she was 14/5) and there was no mention of her arrest.
3. While I doubt some of the info. on Robert's certificate, I can see no reason why Mary's would be wrong. He stated thirty years when they'd been there about eight. It is hard to imagine that this was a mistake.
4. NSW death certificates expect that "place of marriage, age and to whom", mother's maiden name, time in the colony and names and ages of children are recorded. The place of marriage is England and Mary was 42.
5. Here is the possible arrival. There is no proof that it is them but my gut feeling is that it is and that is influencing how I search. The 'Surry' left from Bristol - (very unusual) on 29th March 1852 and arrived in Melbourne on 15 or 18 Sep 1852. They were unassisted immigrants. Robert was 40 and a ship's carpenter. Mary was 39. The Irish on board were specified and Mary wasn't one but it was pretty common to label wives as the same nationality as their husbands so this means nothing. PROV doesn't guarantee the accuracy of ages on the indents (and it would have been an embarkation age at any rate.) The 'Surry' was to go to Port Phillip (Melb.) and then Sydney. I haven't found it arriving in Sydney.
6. If Mary was here before (and I think she was) she probably married here the first time. Now that you mention it Charles Leonard doesn't sound Irish.
7. Pool/e was relatively uncommon (in comparison to many names) in NSW at the time of Margaret's birth.
7. I will follow up the Mary Creane marriage.
Thanks again. I'm open to any suggestions. I'm even thinking of researching here and working forward (even though that is a huge no no),
Jane

[Raffaele]

Blimey, Jane - no wonder you're ready to give up! It's all a bit confusing. If I have understood you correctly, the only documentation you're sure of is from the death certs. My first thought was that Charles Leonard isn't a very irish name. There is a June 1853 marriage (Bedminster) for a Robert Poole and Mary Ann Creane (which at least is irish). I don't have a sub at the moment so can't check if they're still in England on the 1861. It could be the '30 years' was a mistake - it could also be that Mary was either a widow, or conveniently dumped the first husband to marry Robert. What date is your possible arrival? If it's the only one you can find, it might be better to work from that first.

I cannot find a Robert and Mary Poole with Mary born Ireland on any census. There are a lot of possible Robert deaths in the Bristol area from 1853 to 1861 so it is not a yes, just not a no. Reading the story, saying they married in England would be an easy answer which could not be challenged. My take would be that they arrived in some way, possibly transported then started to make a new life. Possibly they were married to different people back in England. He may not have been Robert Poole at all, he could have adopted the name.

[Raffaele]

The only Robert Poole I can find who was sentenced to transportation was Class: HO 27; Piece: 18; Page: 106
Somerset Jan 1819 sentenced to 7 years for Larceny.

I know he was recorded at 60 at his death but that is fairly unreliable making this a possibility (just)
If he came back then he did come from the same area as the marriage found earlier.

[Geoffers]

5. Here is the possible arrival. There is no proof that it is them but my gut feeling is that it is and that is influencing how I search. The 'Surry' left from Bristol - (very unusual) on 29th March 1852 and arrived in Melbourne on 15 or 18 Sep 1852. They were unassisted immigrants. Robert was 40 and a ship's carpenter.

Bearing in mind your location, I hesitate to suggest this - but - if he was a ship's carpenter, then you might try the registers of service of Merchant Seamen

In particular the alphabetical index of seamen 1835-44 in BT119which then relates to the BT112 series.

Also (and from dim and distant memory, easier to use) the index to the registers of seamen's tickets 1845-1854 in BT114 which will relate to the numbered records in BT113.

If he served in the RN at any time, then records might also be found relating to him - see the TNA research guides on the RN.

[barbara lee]

Hi Spison

I realise you don't have a lot of hope for the Robert Pool and Mary Morton marriage, but I can at least identify the church and the area of Liverpool. I have an old A-Z from before they pulled everything down, and I found both Mann Street and Robertson Street between Warwick Street and Northumberland Street. On my latest A-Z Robertson Street is still marked, but Mann Street is gone. Robertson Street still runs parallel to Upper Mann Street.
So the church must be what we now call "St Michael's in the Hamlet", and it was C of E. (There is a St Michael's RC, but it isn't anywhere near Robertson Street and Mann Street.)

Not sure if this will help at all, but I throw it into the pot.

Barbara

(Quote: There are very few marriages in England of a Robert Pool/e to a Mary in 1851 or 1852. I have purchased the marriage certificate of Robert Pool and Mary Morton which I guessed was the best for the timing of the birth of Nancy and the arrival period. This certificate looks promising but doesn’t match exactly. Knowing the participant’s ages might help. Robert and Mary were married by license at St Michael’s, Toxteth in the Parish of Walton on the Hill in Lancashire on 12 January 1852. They were ‘both of full age’. Robert was a shipwright and a bachelor. His father was Robert (dec.) and he lived in Mann St, Toxteth. Mary was a widow and her father was Charles Leonard (dec.). She lived in Robertson Street (no further information given). She made her mark. Robert signed. I have looked for both these streets in the Liverpool 1851 street index and can’t find either although there is a Mann location in Liverpool.)

[spison]

The only Robert Poole I can find who was sentenced to transportation was Class: HO 27; Piece: 18; Page: 106 Somerset Jan 1819 sentenced to 7 years for Larceny.

Thanks Raffaele, I'm pretty sure that this man came on the 'Atlas' and died in 1831. I've tried to trace every Robert Poole settling in NSW and this man was the only one documented to be there before Margaret's birth date. (Years ago he was one of my original 'hopes'.) I'm not sure that 'my' Robert arrived any earlier than about 1851/2 - but I can't be certain.

you might try the [B][URL="https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=127"]

Thanks Geoffers, I assume that these are searchable from here? Let me know if they're not before I try to work out how to look at them. I've tried to navigate around your links but I definitely need more practise as I'm not good with TNA - yet. I'll read the posts about "how to" and see how I go. This might help confirm the arrival at least.

I realise you don't have a lot of hope for the Robert Pool and Mary Morton marriage, but I can at least identify the church and the area of Liverpool. ... the church must be what we now call "St Michael's in the Hamlet", and it was C of E.

Thanks Barbara - especially for the feedback on the likelihood of the marriage. I have to admit that it's not looking for this marriage. My perspective is coloured by 'desperation' I think! I will have another attempt at reading the 1851C (I have to go to the library) using these streets and see what turns up. (If Mary was Catholic she was buried in what is now a C of E church/cemetery - there was no minister present for her death but Sydney Anglican Archives says that this could simply be an omission.)

I'm still open to any other help and advice and opinions on the marriage and arrival.

Jane

[Geoffers]

Thanks Geoffers, I assume that these are searchable from here?

This why I hesitated to suggest it..............

BT119 on TNA's catalogue refers to the class being "Available in microform only"

I don't know if a copy of this is available anywhere on your side of the world.

If it is available then it seems you may need to look for BT119/6, BT119/28, and BT114/16 or BT114/17 - which will then help to identify the files in BT112 and BT113.