Loveridge/Sibthorpe

[almach]

This looks like Ellen Matilda's birth registration.
SMART, ELLEN WILLIAMS, Mother's maiden name WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 814

[almach]

1891 census, RG12; Piece: 273; Folio: 144; Page: 55;
Ellen Smart and dau Ellen Smart are lodging at: 18, Strand St lodging house, Christchurch, Spitalfields
Ellen Smart 42, hawker, married, Chiswick
Ellen Smart 19, hawker, Deptford

[almach]

1891,84, Church St, Deptford. RG12; Piece: 494; Folio: 12; Page: 11
William Smart 22, hawker, Croydon
Mary Ellen Smart 20, hawker

Mary Ellen could be the witness at Ellen Matilda and John Russell's marriage

[almach]

WILLIAMS, WILLIAM -
GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 216
No Mother's maiden name entered.

He was baptised 23rd May 1869 at Croydon, St John.
William Williams Smart son of Ellen and William a basketmaker

[almach]

This is the only likely birth in Reading for William, the record has no MMN so probably an illegitimate birth. William could have invented his father's name for his marriage certificate or perhaps his mother married a man named Stephen. If you want to take this further you need to buy the birth certificate which will give his mother's name.

SMART, WILLIAM -
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in READING Volume 06 Page 257

[Terrie]

There is a tree on Ancestry suggesting Ellen Matilda Jones was also known as Ellen Matilda Williams. These births do appear to fit, as yet I haven't found one for Ellen Matilda Smart/Jones/Williams.

SMART, ELIZABETH JANE, Mother's maiden name WILLIAM
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 939

SMART, JOHN, Mother's maiden name WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1879 D Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 949

WILLIAMS, ANTHONY -
GRO Reference: 1871 J Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 743
No Mother's maiden name entered which usually suggests an illegitimate birth.

If Ellen Matilda Jones was also known as Williams we need to investigate further, unless you know why?

Thank you. Yes, William SMART married Ellen Matilda JONES
GRO Reference: 1884 A Quarter in CROYDON Volume 2A Page 381
The marriage certificate shows Ellen's father as JONES, ROGER and William's as SMART, Stephen

I can't find either father in any census returns or GRO references.

I also can't find any birth registrations for either William or Ellen. Census returns indicate that Ellen was born in Chiswick circa 1849 and William in Reading circa 1849.

There are a couple of GRO entries which seemed possible but when I ordered the certificates were not the right people.

Children born to William and Ellen:
SMART William b 6 Aug 1868 Union Workhouse Croydon bap 23 May 1869 Father given as William Smart

SMART, ANTHONY WILLIAM b 6 MAY 1871 CROYDON GRO Reference: 1871 J Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 743 baptised 6 AUG 1873 CHRIST CHURCH DEPTFORD
d 20 NOV 1918 Croydon Union Infirmary GRO Reference: 1918 O Quarter in CROYDON Volume 2A Page 786

SMART, ELLEN MATILDA b 13 SEP 1873 at 13 Griffin Street, Deptford GRO Reference: 1873 O Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 1D Page 814 MOTHERS MAIDEN NAME Williams
m John Henry RUSSELL 21 MAY 1894 GRO Reference: 1894 Apr Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 1D Page 1240
d 22 SEP 1912 Stanhope Street Deptford GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 1D Page 860


SMART, ELIZABETH JANE b 29 Dec 1877 at 44 Stanhope Street Deptford GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 939 Mother's maiden Name Williams
d 9 Feb 1879

SMART, JOHN b 12 Oct 1879 at 44 Giffin Street Mother's Maiden Name: Giffin

Cenusus returns:

1871 William Smart, Ellen Jones, William Jones - Boarders at a Lodging House Piece
After this date they are listed with Smart name.


So, I'm still looking for the parents of William and Ellen and some idea of who they really are?

[Terrie]

Thank you, Violet May THIRKETTLE is my Grandmother. She Was married to James THIRKETTLE. The redacted entry is my mother born in 1937 and still living. John Henry Russell was born 11 Nov 1870. Mary Russell was born 22 Dec 1896.

[Terrie]

Hi Thank you. I did buy the birth certificate for William Smart b 1846, I will look it out, but I know when I did it became apparent that this could not have been the William Smart I was looking for. Can't remember the reasons off the top of my head, it was some years ago and I haven't recorded the reasons.

[Terrie]

Thank you everyone for your responses. Sorry my response came after some of yours. I started typing it at early this morning and didn't check for updates before sending it. The trees on Ancestry are my own and my cousin's. We have purchased all the certificates and are still stuck. This family did not want to be known and invented names as they went. I was hoping that tracing John and Maney's heritage would help to unlock some of the riddles, but it proved fruitless. It seems to me though, that there must be some connection between the families.Gypsy families did not take in lodgers from the general population. So, at the moment we still don't know who Ellen was or if JONES was her maiden name and we still don't know William or Ellen's parents.

[almach]

Hi Thank you. I did buy the birth certificate for William Smart b 1846, I will look it out, but I know when I did it became apparent that this could not have been the William Smart I was looking for. Can't remember the reasons off the top of my head, it was some years ago and I haven't recorded the reasons.

Hi Terrie, please will you post the details from the birth cert? Mother's name; address; name of who registered the birth.