Loveridge/Sibthorpe

[Terrie]

Thank you for trying to help.

[Terrie]

Hi Terrie,

Just letting you know I haven't given up yet! I have tried to find a Caroline Smart to fit with her having a son William, I looked at possible marriages and drew a blank, I also searched census records for a William and mother Caroline without entering a surname, and looked for deaths.

I found 1, Law Court in 1851, living there is Henry James, 23, a chimney sweeper.

I sympathise with you, it truly is a brick wall.

Just to update on what I've found. I'm convinced that there is a blood relationship between either the individual known as William Smart or the one known as Ellen Jones (Williams). Both my cousin and myself have several dna matches with different lines of descendants from William Loverage 1740 - 1831 and Margaret Devyer 1740 - 1822. These are also ancestors of the John Loveridge my family lived with.

Another dna match indicated that William Smart and Ellen Jones also had a daughter Maria born in 1885 and adopted after the death of Ellen. GRO, baptism and census records seem to confirm this. Not quite sure where I go with this from here, but I'll keep plodding away.

Thank you for your help.

It would seem that

[Terrie]

Hi Terrie,

Just letting you know I haven't given up yet! I have tried to find a Caroline Smart to fit with her having a son William, I looked at possible marriages and drew a blank, I also searched census records for a William and mother Caroline without entering a surname, and looked for deaths.

I found 1, Law Court in 1851, living there is Henry James, 23, a chimney sweeper.

I sympathise with you, it truly is a brick wall.

Thanks for your help, I've had a couple of breakthroughs with the help of dna. I have located the mother of Ellen Jones, but have no paper or record trail to show it. I have 12 dna matches with link her to "Ellen Jones" born 1830, Battle, Sussex. She is the daughter of Thomas Jones and Ellen Unknown. She appears on the 1841 census Piece 1120 Folio 20 Page 32 and the 1851 census 1635 528 59. After that I can't find any trace of her and no trace of her daughter, Ellen, until 1871. Still trying to find some record proof to substantiate and Ellen Jones Junior's birth registration and whereabouts between her birth and 1871.



I have also located William Smart's father through 8 dna matches.He is the illegitimate child of Stephen Smart - Mariner born 1822 from Southwick, Sussex. He was married to Elizabeth Nye. I'm still trying to find out who William's mother was.

[almach]

I have 12 dna matches with link her to "Ellen Jones" born 1830, Battle, Sussex. She is the daughter of Thomas Jones and Ellen Unknown. She appears on the 1841 census Piece 1120 Folio 20 Page 32

Hi Terrie,

The only Ellen Jones I've found at that census reference is living in the household of Jonathan Jones whose wife seems to be Ann. HO107; Piece: 1120; Book: 8; Folio: 20; Page: 32.

Are you also looking at Book 8? Or, have I got the wrong family?

[Terrie]

Hi Terrie,

The only Ellen Jones I've found at that census reference is living in the household of Jonathan Jones whose wife seems to be Ann. HO107; Piece: 1120; Book: 8; Folio: 20; Page: 32.

Are you also looking at Book 8? Or, have I got the wrong family?

No, you haven't got the wrong family, I have attached the wrong census return to my records. I'll go back over my evidence and see if I can find the right one. Try Book 10 Piece 1107 Folio 44 Page 5.

[Terrie]

Hi Terrie,

Just letting you know I haven't given up yet! I have tried to find a Caroline Smart to fit with her having a son William, I looked at possible marriages and drew a blank, I also searched census records for a William and mother Caroline without entering a surname, and looked for deaths.

I found 1, Law Court in 1851, living there is Henry James, 23, a chimney sweeper.

I sympathise with you, it truly is a brick wall.

Hi almach,

I think I might have had a break through in finding Caroline, but I haven't been able to prove my theory. I have a cluster of dna matches which suggest that she is the daughter of Righteous Williams and his wife Caroline. I created a profile that fitted the mystery person on ancestry and tested out the theory with its thrulines and it would seem to be correct. The only problem is that I can't find any evidence that Caroline ever existed. The only children that I can find to attach to Righteous (1804 in Egham -1882 d in Deptford) are Charles b. 1832, Maria 1836 - 1903), Righteous b. 1840 and Sophia (1841 - 1906). These link to my dna matches. Any ideas where I might look to find some evidence?

[almach]

You may have seen these records but searching for and finding helps me to get a handle on things.

I've come across some difficult searches in my time but none as difficult as yours Terrie. It seems every avenue I go down I come to a dead end.

I found Righteous the elder in 1881 a chairmaker cabinet? a boarder living Deptford, born Egham but haven't located him on any other census.

There's this baptism Righteous Williams 22nd Mar 1807 at Farnham Royal Bucks, son of Richard and Elizabeth

Righteous the younger is a chair?? in 1861, living Brentford, I can't make out where he was born
In 1871 he's in Brentford a chair cainer born Sussex, with him are Martha 27, born Watford and Authur (Arthur) 2 months born Ealing.

All Saints Fulham, 21st February 1859
Maria Williams, 23, father Righteous a labourer.
John Young 24, father Charles a carpenter

If I don't go out tomorrow evening I'll do more searching.

[christanel]

Hi Alma
I can only find what you have found. Where is Righteous in the censuses prior to 1881 and his children prior to their marriages? I have tried various ways of searching but not getting anything useful.
The trees on ancestry don't have anything either and without any source to verify Righteous' wife as Caroline.
Just thought I'd let you know someone else is having the same problems.
Christina

[Terrie]

You may have seen these records but searching for and finding helps me to get a handle on things.

I've come across some difficult searches in my time but none as difficult as yours Terrie. It seems every avenue I go down I come to a dead end.

I found Righteous the elder in 1881 a chairmaker cabinet? a boarder living Deptford, born Egham but haven't located him on any other census.

There's this baptism Righteous Williams 22nd Mar 1807 at Farnham Royal Bucks, son of Richard and Elizabeth

Righteous the younger is a chair?? in 1861, living Brentford, I can't make out where he was born
In 1871 he's in Brentford a chair cainer born Sussex, with him are Martha 27, born Watford and Authur (Arthur) 2 months born Ealing.

All Saints Fulham, 21st February 1859
Maria Williams, 23, father Righteous a labourer.
John Young 24, father Charles a carpenter

If I don't go out tomorrow evening I'll do more searching.

Thank you, I really appreciate the assistance. I don't know if this is any help, but I have a cluster of dna matches which come to a dead-end with Robert Cooper and Silvia Williams who headed the Cooper-Williams Romany clan. Looking at the information on Silvia nobody seems to have any details on her parentage, but my dna matches seem to indicate that she is the daughter of Richard Williams and Ann Loveday which would make her a half sister to Righteous Snr. Richard's wife Elizabeth, I believe is Elizabeth Sewell.

Another maybe coincidental factor is that William Smart's half niece, Susannah Smart (1871 - 1941), married Silvia's son, John Williams-Cooper. She had previously been married to William Penfold, who was the father of her daughter Trainette. I also have dna matches which link these, but the cluster links to Stephen Smart not the Williams line.

Other children of Righteous' father, Richard, seem to be Alexander Williams 1800 - 1838 who married Hester Lamb, Sophia Williams 1812 - 1887 who married Nathaniel Taylor, and the unknown son who I suspect was the father of Silvia Williams.

[Terrie]

Hi Alma
I can only find what you have found. Where is Righteous in the censuses prior to 1881 and his children prior to their marriages? I have tried various ways of searching but not getting anything useful.
The trees on ancestry don't have anything either and without any source to verify Righteous' wife as Caroline.
Just thought I'd let you know someone else is having the same problems.
Christina

Thank you for trying to help, it's really appreciated. I had come to terms with never solving the mystery, but dna has given me most of the answers.