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  1. #371

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    I have used this evening to concentrate on two individuals, unfortunately I've got no further with either Righteous Williams or William Smart.
    Alma

  2. #372

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    Quote Originally Posted by almach View Post
    These records are for Ellen Matilda's parents.

    As it seems they didn't marry until 1884 perhaps the children's births were registered with their mother's surname.

    William's marriage certificate is on Ancestry.
    June 9th 1884, St Saviours, Croydon, William Smart 35, bachelor, labourer, father Stephen Smart a labourer
    Ellen Matilda Jones, 35yrs, spinster, father Roger a labourer.
    Both at same address: 35, Forster or Foster Road Croydon. Witnesses George Russell and Thomas Lambert.
    It is interesting that some Cooper's changed their name to Williams according to this Romany site
    https://
    romanygenes.com/cooper-williams-family/4593952035

    "Some of the Cooper family who descended from "Norwwod Sam " took the name Williams after their maternal line of Sylvia (Silver)William's who married Robert Cooper the son of "Norwood Sam" this line ended up in Croydon, the area known as "Banghole" many can be found in census in Wilford Road and Forster Road.
    One of these descendants Max William's who is the Ggg Grandson of "Norwood Sam
    ""

    In 1881 there's a Steven SMART living Forster Road he's too young to be William Smart's father but could he be a brother or other relative.
    RG11; Piece: 815; Folio: 40; Page: 31

    Thomas Lambert the possible witness to the marriage of William Smart and Ellen Matilda Jones is living at Forster Road in 1891
    RG12; Piece: 592; Folio: 10; Page: 19
    And he's in Wilford Road in 1881,
    RG11; Piece: 815; Folio: 46; Page: 44
    1911 he's in Forster Road
    RG14; Piece: 3343; Schedule Number: 43

    Samuel, son of Robert Cooper and Silvia Williams married as Samuel Williams his marriage cert. names his father as Robert Cooper. Samuel can also be found in Wilford Road in 1901, I haven't checked other census returns.
    Alma

  3. #373

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    Quote Originally Posted by almach View Post
    It is interesting that some Cooper's changed their name to Williams according to this Romany site
    https://
    romanygenes.com/cooper-williams-family/4593952035

    "Some of the Cooper family who descended from "Norwwod Sam " took the name Williams after their maternal line of Sylvia (Silver)William's who married Robert Cooper the son of "Norwood Sam" this line ended up in Croydon, the area known as "Banghole" many can be found in census in Wilford Road and Forster Road.
    One of these descendants Max William's who is the Ggg Grandson of "Norwood Sam
    ""

    In 1881 there's a Steven SMART living Forster Road he's too young to be William Smart's father but could he be a brother or other relative.
    RG11; Piece: 815; Folio: 40; Page: 31

    Thomas Lambert the possible witness to the marriage of William Smart and Ellen Matilda Jones is living at Forster Road in 1891
    RG12; Piece: 592; Folio: 10; Page: 19
    And he's in Wilford Road in 1881,
    RG11; Piece: 815; Folio: 46; Page: 44
    1911 he's in Forster Road
    RG14; Piece: 3343; Schedule Number: 43

    Samuel, son of Robert Cooper and Silvia Williams married as Samuel Williams his marriage cert. names his father as Robert Cooper. Samuel can also be found in Wilford Road in 1901, I haven't checked other census returns.
    The Steven Smart in the 1881 census is William's half brother, Stephen Frederick Smart, married to Ruth Taylor. He is the son of William's father, Stephen Smart (1822-1873) and his wife Elizabeth Nye. It's partly through dna matches with his descendants that I was able to locate William's father.

  4. #374

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    Thank you so much for devoting your time to helping me. I'm really very grateful.

  5. #375

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    Quote Originally Posted by almach View Post
    It is interesting that some Cooper's changed their name to Williams according to this Romany site
    https://
    romanygenes.com/cooper-williams-family/4593952035

    "Some of the Cooper family who descended from "Norwwod Sam " took the name Williams after their maternal line of Sylvia (Silver)William's who married Robert Cooper the son of "Norwood Sam" this line ended up in Croydon, the area known as "Banghole" many can be found in census in Wilford Road and Forster Road.
    One of these descendants Max William's who is the Ggg Grandson of "Norwood Sam
    ""

    In 1881 there's a Steven SMART living Forster Road he's too young to be William Smart's father but could he be a brother or other relative.
    RG11; Piece: 815; Folio: 40; Page: 31

    Thomas Lambert the possible witness to the marriage of William Smart and Ellen Matilda Jones is living at Forster Road in 1891
    RG12; Piece: 592; Folio: 10; Page: 19
    And he's in Wilford Road in 1881,
    RG11; Piece: 815; Folio: 46; Page: 44
    1911 he's in Forster Road
    RG14; Piece: 3343; Schedule Number: 43

    Samuel, son of Robert Cooper and Silvia Williams married as Samuel Williams his marriage cert. names his father as Robert Cooper. Samuel can also be found in Wilford Road in 1901, I haven't checked other census returns.
    Sorry, I forgot to say that as well as being William's half brother, this "Steven Smart" was also the father of Susanna Smart who married William Penfold and John Williams-Cooper (the son of Robert Cooper and Silvia Williams).

  6. #376

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    Quote Originally Posted by almach View Post
    It is interesting that some Cooper's changed their name to Williams according to this Romany site
    https://
    romanygenes.com/cooper-williams-family/4593952035

    "Some of the Cooper family who descended from "Norwwod Sam " took the name Williams after their maternal line of Sylvia (Silver)William's who married Robert Cooper the son of "Norwood Sam" this line ended up in Croydon, the area known as "Banghole" many can be found in census in Wilford Road and Forster Road.
    One of these descendants Max William's who is the Ggg Grandson of "Norwood Sam
    ""

    In 1881 there's a Steven SMART living Forster Road he's too young to be William Smart's father but could he be a brother or other relative.
    RG11; Piece: 815; Folio: 40; Page: 31

    Thomas Lambert the possible witness to the marriage of William Smart and Ellen Matilda Jones is living at Forster Road in 1891
    RG12; Piece: 592; Folio: 10; Page: 19
    And he's in Wilford Road in 1881,
    RG11; Piece: 815; Folio: 46; Page: 44
    1911 he's in Forster Road
    RG14; Piece: 3343; Schedule Number: 43

    Samuel, son of Robert Cooper and Silvia Williams married as Samuel Williams his marriage cert. names his father as Robert Cooper. Samuel can also be found in Wilford Road in 1901, I haven't checked other census returns.
    The connection between the Smart family, who were not Roamnies, and the Cooper-Williams Romanies, has alawys seemed to me to hold the secret to William's childhood upbringing. If as I suspect, Silvia Cooper-Williams was the sister to Righteous Williams, she would have been William's Aunt. It seems logical to hypothesise two things, Firstly that William had contact with is father Stephen Smart and his half siblings. Secondly, that his mother, Caroline Williams, had contact with her Aunt and the Cooper-Williams family.

    I've spent some time looking at census returns for the Cooper-Williams family and trying to locate either William or Caroline somewhere within them, but without success.

  7. #377

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    Quote Originally Posted by almach View Post
    This looks like Ellen Matilda's birth registration.
    SMART, ELLEN WILLIAMS, Mother's maiden name WILLIAMS
    GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 814
    I think I've worked out who Ellen (Williams) Jones' father is, but cannot find any paper trail or records to substantiate my theory. DNA matches show that her father must be either a son or a grandson of William Arnold b. 1755 Guston Kent d. 1821 Sandwich, Kent and Mary Friend n. 1759 Worth, Kent d. 1806 Worth, Kent.

    The most likely scenario is a Grandson and the evidence is pointing towards John Arnold b. 1812 Stoner Kent, d. 1901 Maidstone, Kent. He was married to Mercy Huckstep b. 1815 Chislett Kent d. 1890 Maidstone, Kent.

    In addition to the DNA evidence three of John and Mercy's sons married sisters of Maney Hedges' dad, which would have made realted to both Maney and Ellen and would explain why Maney had my Nan, her sister and Mum living with her and why she helped bring my Nan up when Ellen Matilda (my Nan's mother) died before her first birthday.

    I am still looking for some footprint of Ellen Jones and William Smart before 1871. I have tried finding the 1851 and 1861 census returns for John Arnold and Mercy Huckstep's family, but am having no luck. It may be because the April date for census coincided with gypsies taking to the road, but they were often recorded under bushes or in tents by the road. If anyone can assist in finding the returns, I'd be very grateful.

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