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  1. #1
    cgthornton1
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    Default Help with THORNTON brothers in Warwickshire

    Dear highly revered UK Forum Members,

    I started a thread regarding THORNTON DNA on this forum here:
    https://www.british-genealogy.com/for...ad.php?t=50380

    The thread was hijacked by some incredibly kind and helpful people. I went scurrying off to find some critical information and now I’m back with more questions where y’all might be able to help me…so I’m starting a new thread!

    I’ll ask the questions first, and then give the background:

    (A) I’ve believe I’ve proven that John THORNTON of Halifax, Nova Scotia [who was born in 1834 in Warwickshire and whose parents were George & Mary THORNTON] was the brother of my great-grandfather Timothy THORNTON, also of Halifax, NS [who was born in 1838 in England]. I’ve identified a Timothy THORNTON in the UK records whose parents were George & Mary, but I can’t put John and Timothy together. How best to identify, using the UK records, which George & Mary THORNTON had a Timothy [b. 1838] and a brother named John [1834]?

    (B) How do I obtain the birth certificate of John THORNTON [b. 1834] of Warwickshire whose parents were George & Mary THORNTON? It seems the birth records prior to 1837 are all parish records?!?!

    BACKGROUND IN CANADA:

    (1) My great-grandfather was George T. THORNTON [b. Feb, 1866/Kingston, Ontario]. We have his birth certificate; his father is stated as Timothy THORNTON & Ellen HARTERY. Timothy married Ellen in 1865 in St. John's, Newfoundland. I have ordered the marriage certificate, but do not have that yet (there is still some question on the spelling of Ellen’s last name…we have Hartery, Hartrey, Artery, and Hartland).

    (2) Family lore has it that Timothy THORNTON was “born in Coventry, England.”

    (3) I have an image of Timothy THORNTON’s original death record at age 69 [d. Dec 7, 1907/Halifax, Nova Scotia], and a transcription of his obit [Wednesday, December 10, 1907, The Morning Chronicle, Halifax, NS]. The obit of Timothy states his brother as “…John THORNTON, the well known Expressman;” it also establishes his connection to our George T. (then of Boston), and his country of origin as England. The obit states that he was 60 years old (although I believe this to be a transcription error or typo). This puts his year of birth c1838 (assuming the death record is accurate).

    (4) I have an image of the entry in the General Register Office (GRO) index of births which reads: March 1839 THORNTON, Timothy - Foleshill - Vol 16 Page 377. I have ordered this from GRO but have not received it.

    (5) I have an image of the original 1901 Census of Canada (Nova Scotia, Halifax City, District 33, Ward 2, Sub-District 1-B, page 16) where Timothy states his birth date as January 18, 1838, and his country of origin as England…Timothy would have been 69 in Dec 1907.

    (6) I have an image of John THORNTON’s original death record at age “73 9/12” [d. May 5, 1908/Halifax, Nova Scotia], and a transcription of his obit [Tuesday, 5 May 1908, p. 10, col. 5; The Evening Mail, Halifax, Nova Scotia]. The address stated in the obit matches that shown in the death record.

    (7) The obit of John THORNTON also lists the names of his surviving sons (John, George and William THORNTON), the married names of his surviving daughters (Mrs. W.R. COLE, of Boston, and Mrs. F.C. TRAISE, of Halifax), the maiden name of his deceased wife (WOODLING), and that “a brother, Timothy THORNTON died some months ago.” The obit also states that John was “well known Expressman…” and that he was “…born in Coventry, England 74 years ago.”

    (8) I have an image of the original 1901 Census of Canada (Nova Scotia, Halifax City, District 33, Ward 3, Sub-District C-3, page 30) where John states his birth date as August 22, 1834, and his country of origin as England….John would have been 73 in Dec 1908.

    (9) I found an online reference to the possibility that John THORNTON had a second marriage to Emma SCOTT on March 26, 1902. I have an image of the original copy of the registration of this marriage. John’s age is stated as 66 and he states his profession as “Expressman.” Witness on this marriage are Fred C Traise and Elsie Blakeny. The marriage register shows Johns place of birth as Warwickshire, and names John’s parents as George & Mary!

    NOTE: Johanna Zilpah Blakeny [b. Nov 4, 1861] married George Thornton [b. Oct 2, 1865] on Dec 1, 1887, in Halifax, NS; Fredrick C. Traise [b. 1870] married Mary THORNTON [b. 1867] on March 18, 1891 in Halifax, NS. In both instances John and Louisa THORNTON are named as the parents of the groom and bride, respectively; John describes himself as an “Expressman.”

    (10) SUMMARY: My great-grandfather Timothy THORNTON [b. 1838] was from England, and was the brother of John THORNTON of Warwickshire, England whose parents were George & Mary.


    BACKGROUND IN ENGLAND:

    (1) The Walsgrave on Sowe St Mary Marriages register shows that George THORNTON married Mary Broadhurst on September 24, 1832. Elizabeth Broadhurst and John Emery were witnesses. We do NOT have a copy of the original marriage certificate/register, just an internet reference:
    hunimex.net/warwick/bmd/Walsgrave_Marriages_1813-1837.html

    (2) I cannot find what I believe to be a reasonable match in the 1841 UK Census for this couple that is consistent with the 1851 & 1861 census records described below.

    (3) I have the image of the original 1851 UK census (HOIO7/2066, folio 586, p1: Sowe, Warwickshire). It shows that this George [b. c1807 of Wolverton, Northamptonshire] was married to Mary [b. 1809 of Sowe]. Children listed are Timothy [b. 1838], George [b. 1841], Mary [b. 1844], James [b. 1846], and Sarah [b. 1849], all born in Sowe. There is NO John listed.

    (4) I have the image of the original 1851 UK census (HO107/2066, folio 653, p3: Binley, Warwickshire) where a John THORNTON [b. 1835] listed as a “Waggoner” in the house of John Bray.

    (5) I have the image of the original 1861 UK census (RG9/2197 folio I, p14; Sowe, Warwickshire) of the census. It shows that this George [b. c1807 of Wolverton, Northamptonshire] was married to Mary [b. 1809 of Sowe]. Children listed are George [b. 1841], Mary [b. 1844], Sarah [b. 1849], and William [b. 1852], all born in Sowe. There is NO Timothy or John listed.

    (6) The Walsgrave-on-Sowe, St Mary Burials 1813-1876 show that George THORNTON was buried on March 30, 1865 in Sowe…his age is listed as 58 …which suggests he was b. 1807. Again, we do NOT have a copy of the original, just an internet reference:
    hunimex.net/warwick/bmd/Walsgrave_on_sowe_burials%201813-1876.html

    (7) I have the 1871 UK Census (RG10/3174, folio 107, p1) and the 1881 UK Census (RG11/3065, folio 105, p3) which both show widow Mary THORNTON [b. 1809 of Sowe] living with Sarah [b. 1849 of Sowe].

    (8) I have an internet reference from the Warwickshire records where the Walsgrave on Sowe baptisms show the following children associated with George & Mary THORNTON: Elizabeth [b. c1833], John [b. c1834], Timothy [b. c1838], George [b. c1840], Mary [b. c1843], James [b. c1845], Sarah [b. c1848], and William [b. c1851].

    SUMMARY: The only references I can find in the UK to a Timothy THORNTON are the aforementioned 1851 UK Census and the birth registration. I do NOT have a document that puts a Timothy THORNTON and a John THORNTON together in the house of George and Mary THORNTON.

    Thanks,
    cgt
    Last edited by MarkJ; 07-11-2009 at 9:59 PM. Reason: Links edited - commercial. Please add www. to address.

  2. #2
    Marie C..
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    I cannot find Timothy on 1841 census.
    It seems the Sowe baptisms of the children of George and Mary as you have given are correct.
    The 1851 census gives George 44 and Mary 42 and children Timothy, George, Mary, James and Sarah. It is possible that John was staying elsewhere at the time.
    The birth details for Timothy seem likely to be his. Sowe was in the registration district of Foleshill.
    There are two marriages for Timothy Thornton , one in 1851 and the other in 1858(Dudley Worcs).
    The hunimex site is very reliable. Some dedicated people have worked very hard on that site.
    Marie

  3. #3
    cgthornton1
    Guest

    Default Timothy Marriages

    The marriage for Timothy THORNTON in 1851 is unlikely as Timothy [b. 1838] would have been 13. In the other instance (i.e., 1858), Timothy [b. 1838] would have been 20; however, the Timothy I'm pursuing married Ellen H. in Newfoundland c1865...not to say the latter Timothy couldn't have been the same Timothy, but what next?!?!

  4. #4
    Brick wall demolition expert!
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cgthornton1 View Post
    (8) I have an internet reference from the Warwickshire records where the Walsgrave on Sowe baptisms show the following children associated with George & Mary THORNTON: Elizabeth [b. c1833], John [b. c1834], Timothy [b. c1838], George [b. c1840], Mary [b. c1843], James [b. c1845], Sarah [b. c1848], and William [b. c1851].
    The closest I could find on the 1841 census is this family in Sowe Village. They match most members of the family:

    John Thornton 30
    Mary Thornton 37
    Elizth Thornton 7
    John Thornton 6
    George Thornton 8 Mo

    Civil parish: Sowe
    Hundred: Knightlow (Kirby Division)
    County/Island: Warwickshire
    Registration district: Foleshill
    Sub-registration district: Sowe
    HO107; Piece 1136; Book: 27; Folio: 6; Page: 7;

    Unfortunately, no Timothy & the father's name is incorrect. Now to see if we can find this family in 1851 to eliminate them..

  5. #5
    Geoffers
    Guest

    Default

    (A) I’ve believe I’ve proven that John THORNTON of Halifax, Nova Scotia [who was born in 1834 in Warwickshire and whose parents were George & Mary THORNTON] was the brother of my great-grandfather Timothy THORNTON, also of Halifax, NS [who was born in 1838 in England]. I’ve identified a Timothy THORNTON in the UK records whose parents were George & Mary, but I can’t put John and Timothy together. How best to identify, using the UK records, which George & Mary THORNTON had a Timothy [b. 1838] and a brother named John [1834]?
    It's a question of using the records available to reach a conclusion - so, was Timothy's birth registered? If so, what does the birth certificate record?

    Was John baptised? If he was - where and who were the parents - what was the occupation of his dad in the register? Does the information in the parish register correspond with the birth certificate for Timothy?

    Can a marriage for George be found in a parish register - if so does the surname of his bride match up with the birth certificate for Timothy?

    Working through parish registers can solve a lot of family history questions

    (B) How do I obtain the birth certificate of John THORNTON [b. 1834] of Warwickshire whose parents were George & Mary THORNTON? It seems the birth records prior to 1837 are all parish records?!?!
    Civil registration began in England and Wales in 1837; with very few exceptions you cannot obtain a birth certificate for events prior to then. It is a case of using parish registers - the amount of information recorded in registers varies over time (and also between parishes).

    Parish registers, maintained by the church are concerned with events of religious importance - baptism, marriage and burial.

    I think that the 1841 census entry in Sowe HO107/1136/27 f6 p7 does relate to your family - mistakes were made by enumerators in copying census schedules into the enumerator's books that we view today and these mistakes do sometimes confound our ability to make sense of the records 150+ years later.

  6. #6
    Marie C..
    Guest

    Default

    Sorry! Of course the first marriage wasn't your Timothy's.
    The one in 1878 in Dudley doesn't sound likely either !(that one was to a Mary Round or a Phoebe Middlebrook)
    What next?
    Well Timothy's birth cert, which you have sent for, will give the father's name as George presumably which will support the baptismal evidence.
    Sometimes going sideways is helpful.
    There is often some truth in family lore.
    I cannot find another Timothy Thornton born around that time in Warks except the one born to george and Mary.

    Marie

  7. #7
    Wirral
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cgthornton1 View Post
    (A) I’ve believe I’ve proven that John THORNTON of Halifax, Nova Scotia [who was born in 1834 in Warwickshire and whose parents were George & Mary THORNTON] was the brother of my great-grandfather Timothy THORNTON, also of Halifax, NS [who was born in 1838 in England]. I’ve identified a Timothy THORNTON in the UK records whose parents were George & Mary, but I can’t put John and Timothy together. How best to identify, using the UK records, which George & Mary THORNTON had a Timothy [b. 1838] and a brother named John [1834]?
    Are there any other George and/or Mary THORNTONs living in that area & at that time who could be candidates as parents of Timothy & John? If not, & if the birth certificate for Timothy proves he was their child, then that increases the probablilty that you have the right couple. Another thing to bear in mind is that the name Timothy is actually a fairly uncommon name in England.

    Also, have you looked for wills?

    (B) How do I obtain the birth certificate of John THORNTON [b. 1834] of Warwickshire whose parents were George & Mary THORNTON? It seems the birth records prior to 1837 are all parish records?!?!
    As others have said, there will be no birth certificate for a pre-1837 birth. However, the parish register will give the place of residence & the occupation of the father which can be usefull in identification.
    (4) I have an image of the entry in the General Register Office (GRO) index of births which reads: March 1839 THORNTON, Timothy - Foleshill - Vol 16 Page 377. I have ordered this from GRO but have not received it.
    There have been postal strikes in the UK.

  8. #8
    cgthornton1
    Guest

    Default Mistakes in the 1841 Census

    Geoffers,

    I also think that the 1841 UK Census you referenced from Sowe (HO107/1136/27, folio 6, p7) does relate to the John & Timothy THORNTON I’m searching for; however, I have 2 reasons for, and two reasons against:

    AGAINST:

    (a) Obviously, I’m looking for George, not John; his age is given as 30 (which would make his birth year as 1811…I’m looking for something closer to 1807), and he is reported as being born in Sowe, Warwickshire! The last two I'm not so concerned with, but the misnaming is the most troublesome.

    (b) The age of Mary is clearly shown as 37 [b. 1804] …I’m looking for a Mary 2 years younger than her husband, born 1809. There’s no mistaking the age shown here!

    All in all that’s a perfect storm of mistakes that I have argue my way around…on the other hand…

    FOR:

    (a) The spacing & names of the THORNTON children match the names, order, and spans I’m looking for: Eliz [b. 1834], John [b. 1835], and George [b. 1841].

    (b) In the 1851 UK Census (HOIO7/2066, folio 586, p1) in which Timothy THORNTON is listed, the names & ages of the people in the next house are shown as: James MILLS [age 50], Ellen MILLS [age 40], Phebe MILLS [age 13], Selina MILLS [age 11], Emma MILLS [age 7], John MILLS [age 6], and Maria MILLS [age 2].

    In the 1841 UK Census (HO107/1136/27, folio 6, p7) in which John THORNTON is listed, the names & ages of the people in the next house are shown as: James MILLS [age 60], Eleanor MILLS [age 50], Phoebe MILLS [age 80], Emma MILLS [age 19], Maria MILLS [age 11], and Isabella MILLS [age 5].

    There are a number of other names that appear on the 1841 UK Census that reappear on the 1851 UK Census! My personal opinion is that the most compelling evidence is the names of the neighbors… I dunno, I’m by NO means an expert in such things, but waddaya think?!?!

    Is the best way to obtain the parish record of the births of George & Mary’s children the Warwickshire County Record Office (here):
    https://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/c...256A100037C723

    Wirral …haven’t spent a bunch of time looking for wills just yet but I’ve tried the A2A and have come away empty each and every time…guess my people didn’t have a whole lot to say or record for the sake of history!!!

    Thanks,
    cgt

  9. #9
    Geoffers
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cgthornton1
    (a) Obviously, I’m looking for George, not John
    The head of family in the pervious schedule is also John, I have found instances where an apparant mistake has been made by an enumerator who has seeminlgy lost his place/been interrupted/whetever - and copied a name from one entry into a subsequent entry - mistakes do happen. I'm not saying this has happened here - just that it may have done.

    Another reason is someone having two forenames, and changing which name they were known by. Your chap might have been George John/John George and at differing times of his life been known as John and then George. Again, this is just a possibility. Perhaps hunting a baptism for him may clarify things.

    his age is given as 30 (which would make his birth year as 1811…I’m looking for something closer to 1807),
    The age in the 1841 census was supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years for those aged over 15.So, someone recorded as 30 in 1841 could have been born between 1806 and 1811. Being the first census in which individuals were required to be recorded, it was prone to all sorts of errors being made.

    he is reported as being born in Sowe, Warwickshire! The last two I'm not so concerned with, but the misnaming is the most troublesome.
    The 1841 census just shows if someone was born in the county, or not - and if someone was born in foreign parts. It doesn't record a precise birthplace.

    (b) The age of Mary is clearly shown as 37 [b. 1804] …I’m looking for a Mary 2 years younger than her husband, born 1809. There’s no mistaking the age shown here!
    See above for imprecise ages in 1841 and errors which were made.

    There are a number of other names that appear on the 1841 UK Census that reappear on the 1851 UK Census! My personal opinion is that the most compelling evidence is the names of the neighbors…
    It shows a consistency common in small rural parishes. However, people did move within parishes quite frequently.


    Is the best way to obtain the parish record of the births of George & Mary’s children the Warwickshire County Record Office (here):
    If you have one of the mormon church (LDS) record centres within reasonable travelling distance, you mgiht check to see if you can there hire a copy of the registers on film. This would give you access to records for a reasonable period of time to view them and check for yourself and so be certain that nothing has been left out.

    Otherwise, record offices over here do often sell copies of registers in microform (film and fiches - e.g. I have over 2,000 fiches of registers in Norfolk).

    You might also try the record office to see if they have a survey and map of the parish in conenction with the Tithe Commutation returns. if one was created and survives, the maps can be very detailed and identify precisely where a family lived in a parish.

    Wirral …haven’t spent a bunch of time looking for wills just yet but I’ve tried the A2A and have come away empty each and every time…guess my people didn’t have a whole lot to say or record for the sake of history!!!
    Where to look for wills depends on the period in time. Up to 1858, probate was the responsibility of the Church. There were several chrcuh courts which dealt with it, the general rule being that probate was granted by the lowest church in the chain. If someone held property in just one archdeaconry, then that court dealt with probate, if someone held property in two archdeaconries in one diocese, then the diocesan court delath with it, if someone held property in two diocese then a provicional court had authority.

    After 1858 things get simpler and there is a national index to probate and admons (Letters of Administration normally granted where someone did without a will). The national index is called the Probate Calendar - it is easy to use and contains more information than the GRO index of deaths. It is a great resource if there is someone who left a will or where admon was granted.

    The Probate Calendar has been copied onto film, I undertsand that it can also be viewed at mormon church record centres.

  10. #10
    Marie C..
    Guest

    Default

    Your Goerge in Halifax NS called his first son George. This seems to support the father of Timothy being George rather than the John or Edward who were also on the census for Sowe and who had each had sons called John and george.
    The family lore that gives Coventry as a family birthplace is not wrong. There were Thorntons baptised and married in Coventry churches, St. Michael's and at Holy Trinity(see Hugh Wallis site) but not a George and Mary married nor a Timothy baptised. Marie

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