Marie C./Geoffers,
On this side of the pond, when we refer to Coventry, it really is more of a generalization of geography than a specific assertion of definitive location! I think I simply meant to suggest that it is within the general area of origin as opposed to stating that Timothy had to originate within the confines of Coventry. On this side of the pond, had I said Walsgrave-Upon-Sowe, I would get blank stares; had I said Birmingham, everyone would think Alabama! From my perspective (for whatever that’s worth) Walsgrave-Upon-Sowe is within the bulls-eye!
I do have references from the Warwickshire genealogy site that the marriage of George & Mary took place on Sept 24, 1832 at St. Mary’s. I also have the burial info for George on March 30, 1865 at St. Mary’s…I have all the names & dates of the baptisms associated with George & Mary, but the file I got did not specify the church.
As for the 1841 census vs. the 1851 census, upon quick review there are at least 4 families (Thornton, Mills, Cawthorn, and Burditt) that appear on both, and in the same order (reversed, but the same order!)
I do have extremely convenient access to a FHL, and I’ve ordered films as part of my Canada quest (haven’t received them as yet), but I found the info below on FamilySearch.org …is this what I should be looking at? …how long does it take to look at one of these films? …and BTW, what is a “Banns”?
Once again I am indebted to you folks…thanks for the help!
Best,
cgt ...
LDS Films:
Title Parish registers for Sowe, 1704-1961
Authors Church of England. Parish Church of Sowe (Warwickshire)
Baptisms, 1749-1788; Burials, 1749-1765; Marriages, 1748-1754; Burials, 1765-1797; Baptisms, 1789-1797; Church history Removals, 1710-1768; Indentures of apprenticeships, 1704-1768; Orders of sessions, 1716-1768; List of parish officers Terrier, 1775; Marriages, 1754-1812.
FHL BRITISH Film 555351
Banns, 1754-1816; Baptisms, 1797-1812. FHL BRITISH Film
555351
Baptisms, 1813-1876. Marriages, 1813-1876. Burials, 1813-1877.
FHL BRITISH Film 557274
Banns, 1857-1829. Baptisms, 1874-1961. Marriages, 1874-1907. Burials, 1874-1929. FHL BRITISH Film 1067548
Results 11 to 20 of 25
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09-11-2009, 2:23 AM #11cgthornton1Guest
Back to the library!
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09-11-2009, 8:22 AM #12GeoffersGuesthow long does it take to look at one of these films?
If you mean how long does it take to work through a register - it depends - on the time period and quality of the writing, also the size of the parish.
A large urban parish has more entries and takes longer, rural parisehs have fewer and are quicker to read. Registers break down into periods, from 1813 onwards, baptisms and burials appear in tabluated registers with pre-printed columns.
Marriages and banns appear in similar types of registers from 1754.
Up to around 1700 you can find different types of handwriting which generally fall into a stye known as Secretary Hand. From about 1700 onwards there is an increasing use of italic handwriting and the amount of information recorded varies.
If your family lived in an a parish for sometime, you may find a benefit in at least indexing all entries in the register, in addition to the entries you extract as being definitely connected.
Working through registers (apart from the damaged bits) generally doesn't take too long for a rural parish.
and BTW, what is a “Banns”?
So, to give a ficitious example:
In Northown registers you might see banns published between
John SMITH, widower, of this parish
Elizabeth JONES, singlewoman, of Southtown.
Three dates should then be listed.
Obviously if you cannot find a subsequent marriage in Northtown, you might look for it in Southtown.
Sometimes you will see objections to banns. Occasionally you will see a home parish of bride/groom which is not recorded in the marriage register. Quite often they add little - but - ignore them at your peril. You can be sure that if you don't check them, they will hold that vital bit of information that you've been seeking for a long time.
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09-11-2009, 3:12 PM #13cgthornton1Guest
Overcoming Errors in the Census Records?
Geoffers,
Once again, thank you very much…you are not only an extraordinary typist, but your typing is edifying as well! Two questions:
First, in regard to the previous thread in which Wirral identified two men in the 1861 UK Census with the THORNTON surname, of approximately the same age as George THORNTON (who married Mary Broadhurst), and who report themselves as being born in Wolverton, Buckinghamshire…if George THORNTON who married Mary was indeed from Wolverton, Buckinghamshire (as opposed to Wolverton, Northamptonshire as is reported in the 1851 and 1861 census’), then there should also be a “Bann” in Wolverton, Buckinghamshire announcing the marriage of George & Mary? …or is it more complicated than that as the aforementioned gentlemen (William & John) both lived in Wormleighton, Warwickshire in the 1861 census?
Second, in regard to the “John George” or “George John” scenario in the 1841 vs. 1851 census, this unlikely because if the aforementioned gentlemen from Wolverton were indeed his brothers, one of them was named John…so an error is more likely! What is the best way to prove that the John & Mary THORNTON in the 1841 census (which lists a John THORNTON b. c1834) is the same George & Mary THORNTON in the 1851 census (which lists a Timothy THORNTON b. c1838)? Do I transcribe ALL the names of residents in the Sowe parish given in both the 1841 census and the 1851 census and then make the argument that the structure of the immediate neighbors is similar enough to make the conclusion I’m looking for…namely putting the 1841-John and the 1851-Timothy in the same house at the same time?
Best regards,
cgt
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09-11-2009, 4:00 PM #14GeoffersGuestOriginally Posted by cgthornton1
Second, in regard to the “John George” or “George John” scenario in the 1841 vs. 1851 census, this unlikely because if the aforementioned gentlemen from Wolverton were indeed his brothers, one of them was named John…so an error is more likely!
What is the best way to prove that the John & Mary THORNTON in the 1841 census (which lists a John THORNTON b. c1834) is the same George & Mary THORNTON in the 1851 census (which lists a Timothy THORNTON b. c1838)?
Do I transcribe ALL the names of residents in the Sowe parish
Working through parish registers can answer a lot of questions which you have about families; it is something I recommend whenever possible.
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09-11-2009, 6:04 PM #15WirralGuest
This is assuming that the enumerator's path was the same at each census. In my experience, in a village the paths could be different every time. One year the enumerator went up one side of the road, then down the other side, then did the houses off the main road; another year he went backwards & forwards across the road, then did the side houses; another time he went all over the place! Don't forget, each time it was probably a different enumerator & it was 10 years apart. As long as the enumerator covered all the houses in his patch it didn't matter too much. After all, most houses in villages at that time weren't laid out in nice neat rows & they didn't have numbers anyway.
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10-11-2009, 12:21 AM #16cgthornton1Guest
Hey AdeleE...THANKS!
AdeleE,
I don't think I acknowledged your contribution here...I just re-read the thread looking for a clue & realized that it was you that contributed the 1841 Census reference to John & Mary...I still have some work to do here, and I'm VERY hopeful that this is the family I'm looking for, but I believe that this error may have been THE significant brick wall that has been hindering my cousins all these years ...I'm new to this business & this forum has really provided some incredible insights in a VERY short period of time!
Thank you, thank you, thank you yet again!
...seems I say that alot on this forum...ahh what the heck...THANKS
Best,
cgt
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11-11-2009, 3:55 AM #17cgthornton1Guest
Comparison of 1841 & 1851 Census records
I tried to examine the similarities of the population in the 1841 Census surrounding John & Mary THORNTON with that surrounding George & Mary THORNTON in the 1851 UK Census to try to make an assessment as to whether there is an error in the 1841 census (i.e., is the family of John & Mary THORNTON the same family as George & Mary THORNTON shown in the 1851 census, and John is misnamed in the 1841 record).
THE 1841 UK CENSUS:
I downloaded a transcription of the 1841 UK Census (HO107/1136) from here:
https://www.hunimex.com/warwick/index.html
The Civil Parish of Sowe can be found in Book 27, from Folio 3 page 1, to Folio 19 page 32 …this is approximately 800 people.
I looked at the streets associated with the various people in this parish.
John & Mary THORNTON are shown as being located within “Sowe Village” (as opposed to on any particular street). There were approximately 203 people in Sowe Village with 73 surnames among the 800 in Sowe Parish.
There was only one family with the surname THORNTON among the 800 people in Sowe Parish (there were a total of 21 people with the THORNTON surname in HO107/1136, but only 1 family of 5 in Sowe Parish…John, Mary & the 3 kids).
THE 1851 UK CENSUS:
I could not find a transcription of the 1851 UK Census (HO1O7/2066). On ancestry.com, in the 1851 census where Timothy THORNTON is shown in the house of George & Mary, there are 49 pages containing approximately 975 people (I assume this is Sowe Parish). There was only one family with the surname THORNTON among the 975 people on these 49 pages (as best I could tell because it was manual inspection of images of the original documents).
In the 1851 Census George & Mary THORNTON are listed on the first page (i.e., folio 586, page 1). I manually transcribed the first 6 pages of this census (based on what ancestry.com said the names were!) There were approximately 120 people with 34 different surnames onthese 6 pages.
COMPARISON:
I was able to identify 10 different surnames (comprising 54 people) in Sowe Village in the 1841 census that could CLEARLY be associated with the first 120 people in the 1851 census.
Perhaps more importantly, on the page in the 1841 census in which John & Mary are shown (i.e., Book 27, Folio 6, Page 7), there are 4 other families…all 4 families could be identified in the 1851 census within the 120 people transcribed.
Comments?
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11-11-2009, 9:22 AM #18GeoffersGuest
The fact there is just the one family of THORNTONs and that there is so much similarity between the 1841 and 1851 census tends to support the idea that an error has been made - but it is not proof - however -
I notice that the Warwickshire Record Office has an index to the Tithe Apportionments. The record office has associated maps as well (this will show exactly where the family lived).
So, the index includes mention of George THORNTON in Sowe in 1844 (it also gives the plot number, number of houses occupied, size of the land holding and owner). Work through the entries for Sowe and see who was living around your chap. Now check the 1841 census and see what similarities exist. Again it is not proof, but you will be building up a body of corroboration for a theory.
In your shoes I would be chomping at the bit to get a copy of the Tithe Map and then compare that with historical maps of the area (also try the old-maps web-site) and modern large scale maps as sold by the 'Ordnance Survey' and available through online booksellers.
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11-11-2009, 11:52 PM #19WirralGuest
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12-11-2009, 1:59 AM #20cgthornton1Guest
An Enumerator Extraordinaire!
Thanks Mrs. Wirral!
Okay…I looked at the "Tithe Apportionment Details: 1838-1853" for Warwickshire & I found only 2 THORNTONs listed…none were landowners! The 2 I found were both “Occupiers,” a John THORNTON and a George THORNTON
John was associated with 30 properties: 2 were in the Diocese of Birmingham, and the Parish of Hampton in Arden (Hampton and Diddington, Kinwalsey and Balsall); 28 were in the Diocese of Birmingham, and the Parish of Elmdon.
George was associated with 1 property…the details were:
Plot Location:
Parish Sowe (now Walsgrave on Sowe)
Plot Number 219
Perches 38
Plot Details & Record Details:
Land & Premises Two Houses and Gardens
Document Ref CR0569-207
Year of Record 1844
Landowner Details:
William Wale Brown
Occupier Details:
George Thornton
Notes:
More than one occupier – duplicate entry
I then looked at all the Tithes Apportionment 1838-1853 for the entire Parish of Sowe. There were approximately 293 listings…Plot Number 219 (as indicated above) was apportioned to Occupier George THORNTON. The listings of the plots apportioned from 218 to 223 are shown below:
Plot No. / Land & Premises / Landowner / Occupier
218 / National School, Yard and Gard / The Trustees of National School / Joseph Staine
219 / Two Houses and Gardens / William Wale Brown / George Thornton
219 / Two Houses and Gardens / William Wale Brown / James Mills
220 / Three Houses and Gardens / William Cawthorn / William Cawthorn
221 / Two Houses and Gardens / Phoebe Mills / John Jennings
222 / Six Houses and Gardens / Thomas (Trustees of) Smith / William Keene
223 / Orchard / Thomas (Trustees of) Smith / Henry Quinney
If you’ll recall my conclusion from my previous post:
“…on the page in the 1841 census in which John & Mary are shown (i.e., Book 27, Folio 6, Page 7), there are 4 other families…all 4 families could be identified in the 1851 census within the 120 people transcribed.”
The 5 surnames that appear on page 7, of Folio 6, in Book 27, of HO107/1136 are shown below:
James Burditt,30,,Ribbon Weaver,WAR,
Wm Cawthorn,35,,Ag Lab,WAR,
Gittins,30,,Ag Lab,WAR,
John Thornton,30,,Ag Lab,WAR,
James Mills,50,,Ag Lab,WAR,
Phebe Mills,,13,,WAR,
SUMMARY:
The family of George THORNTON lived in one of two houses on Plot 219; the other house was occupied by the family of James Mills, presumably the same James Mills in both the 1841 & 1851 census lists. Plot 220 was owned by William Cawthorn, presumably the same William Cawthorn in both the 1841 & 1851 census lists. Plot 221 was owned by Phoebe Mills, presumably the same Phoebe Mills in both the 1841 & 1851 census lists (note: while Phebe (sic) Mills is shown as age 13 in the 1841 Census, her DOB in the 1851 Census is given as 1771!) The other names listed on the 1841 census page, but not shown in the Tithes Apportionment (i.e., Burditt & Gittins), must have subleased from among the 15 homes shown in plots 219-222 (e.g., the Notes section for Plot 222 reads: “Trustees of Thomas Smith viz: Abel Rotherham and George Slater. And other occupiers”).
CONCLUSION:
I’m shocked the Enumerator in the 1841 UK Census spelled “THORNTON” correctly!
P.S. Do I still need to look at the “Plot Map?”
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