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  1. #11
    cgthornton1
    Guest

    Default Back to the library!

    Marie C./Geoffers,
    On this side of the pond, when we refer to Coventry, it really is more of a generalization of geography than a specific assertion of definitive location! I think I simply meant to suggest that it is within the general area of origin as opposed to stating that Timothy had to originate within the confines of Coventry. On this side of the pond, had I said Walsgrave-Upon-Sowe, I would get blank stares; had I said Birmingham, everyone would think Alabama! From my perspective (for whatever that’s worth) Walsgrave-Upon-Sowe is within the bulls-eye!

    I do have references from the Warwickshire genealogy site that the marriage of George & Mary took place on Sept 24, 1832 at St. Mary’s. I also have the burial info for George on March 30, 1865 at St. Mary’s…I have all the names & dates of the baptisms associated with George & Mary, but the file I got did not specify the church.

    As for the 1841 census vs. the 1851 census, upon quick review there are at least 4 families (Thornton, Mills, Cawthorn, and Burditt) that appear on both, and in the same order (reversed, but the same order!)

    I do have extremely convenient access to a FHL, and I’ve ordered films as part of my Canada quest (haven’t received them as yet), but I found the info below on FamilySearch.org …is this what I should be looking at? …how long does it take to look at one of these films? …and BTW, what is a “Banns”?

    Once again I am indebted to you folks…thanks for the help!
    Best,
    cgt ...

    LDS Films:

    Title Parish registers for Sowe, 1704-1961
    Authors Church of England. Parish Church of Sowe (Warwickshire)

    Baptisms, 1749-1788; Burials, 1749-1765; Marriages, 1748-1754; Burials, 1765-1797; Baptisms, 1789-1797; Church history Removals, 1710-1768; Indentures of apprenticeships, 1704-1768; Orders of sessions, 1716-1768; List of parish officers Terrier, 1775; Marriages, 1754-1812.
    FHL BRITISH Film 555351

    Banns, 1754-1816; Baptisms, 1797-1812. FHL BRITISH Film
    555351

    Baptisms, 1813-1876. Marriages, 1813-1876. Burials, 1813-1877.
    FHL BRITISH Film 557274

    Banns, 1857-1829. Baptisms, 1874-1961. Marriages, 1874-1907. Burials, 1874-1929. FHL BRITISH Film 1067548

  2. #12
    Geoffers
    Guest

    Default

    how long does it take to look at one of these films?
    If you mean how long does it take for them to arrive - I don't know, I've never had to use a mormon record centre.

    If you mean how long does it take to work through a register - it depends - on the time period and quality of the writing, also the size of the parish.

    A large urban parish has more entries and takes longer, rural parisehs have fewer and are quicker to read. Registers break down into periods, from 1813 onwards, baptisms and burials appear in tabluated registers with pre-printed columns.

    Marriages and banns appear in similar types of registers from 1754.

    Up to around 1700 you can find different types of handwriting which generally fall into a stye known as Secretary Hand. From about 1700 onwards there is an increasing use of italic handwriting and the amount of information recorded varies.

    If your family lived in an a parish for sometime, you may find a benefit in at least indexing all entries in the register, in addition to the entries you extract as being definitely connected.

    Working through registers (apart from the damaged bits) generally doesn't take too long for a rural parish.

    and BTW, what is a “Banns”?
    A notice of intention to marry. Banns were published on three Sundays before a marriage in the parishes of both bride and groom; if no one objects then the marriage can proceed.

    So, to give a ficitious example:

    In Northown registers you might see banns published between
    John SMITH, widower, of this parish
    Elizabeth JONES, singlewoman, of Southtown.
    Three dates should then be listed.

    Obviously if you cannot find a subsequent marriage in Northtown, you might look for it in Southtown.

    Sometimes you will see objections to banns. Occasionally you will see a home parish of bride/groom which is not recorded in the marriage register. Quite often they add little - but - ignore them at your peril. You can be sure that if you don't check them, they will hold that vital bit of information that you've been seeking for a long time.

  3. #13
    cgthornton1
    Guest

    Default Overcoming Errors in the Census Records?

    Geoffers,
    Once again, thank you very much…you are not only an extraordinary typist, but your typing is edifying as well! Two questions:

    First, in regard to the previous thread in which Wirral identified two men in the 1861 UK Census with the THORNTON surname, of approximately the same age as George THORNTON (who married Mary Broadhurst), and who report themselves as being born in Wolverton, Buckinghamshire…if George THORNTON who married Mary was indeed from Wolverton, Buckinghamshire (as opposed to Wolverton, Northamptonshire as is reported in the 1851 and 1861 census’), then there should also be a “Bann” in Wolverton, Buckinghamshire announcing the marriage of George & Mary? …or is it more complicated than that as the aforementioned gentlemen (William & John) both lived in Wormleighton, Warwickshire in the 1861 census?

    Second, in regard to the “John George” or “George John” scenario in the 1841 vs. 1851 census, this unlikely because if the aforementioned gentlemen from Wolverton were indeed his brothers, one of them was named John…so an error is more likely! What is the best way to prove that the John & Mary THORNTON in the 1841 census (which lists a John THORNTON b. c1834) is the same George & Mary THORNTON in the 1851 census (which lists a Timothy THORNTON b. c1838)? Do I transcribe ALL the names of residents in the Sowe parish given in both the 1841 census and the 1851 census and then make the argument that the structure of the immediate neighbors is similar enough to make the conclusion I’m looking for…namely putting the 1841-John and the 1851-Timothy in the same house at the same time?
    Best regards,
    cgt

  4. #14
    Geoffers
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cgthornton1
    if George THORNTON who married Mary was indeed from Wolverton, Buckinghamshire (as opposed to Wolverton, Northamptonshire as is reported in the 1851 and 1861 census’), then there should also be a “Bann” in Wolverton, Buckinghamshire announcing the marriage of George & Mary? …or is it more complicated than that
    Sadly it's a little more complicated. The Banns register and Marriage register should both reocrd the parish where bride and groom lived at that time. This is not the same as place of birth. One or both of those getting maried are frequently recorded as being 'of this parish' when in fact they had little more than a passing conenction with the place. The banns registers are worth checking for the odd instance when they record something different.

    Second, in regard to the “John George” or “George John” scenario in the 1841 vs. 1851 census, this unlikely because if the aforementioned gentlemen from Wolverton were indeed his brothers, one of them was named John…so an error is more likely!
    More likely certainly, but there are instances of names being reused even when a sibling of the same name is still alive.

    What is the best way to prove that the John & Mary THORNTON in the 1841 census (which lists a John THORNTON b. c1834) is the same George & Mary THORNTON in the 1851 census (which lists a Timothy THORNTON b. c1838)?
    It is through amassing circumstantial evidence corroboration that you can reach a conclusion that an error is likely to have been made. In this case I know of instances where someone appaers to have copied a name out tiwce - as mentioned in the 1841 census, the household prior to the THORNTON family is headed by a chap called John. The forenames and ages of other THORNTONs in the 1841 household is pretty consistent with other available information so that I would be happy at this stage to conclude that it is likely to be the correct household. It is then a case of looking at the parish registers to see what they record.

    Do I transcribe ALL the names of residents in the Sowe parish
    I can only say what I do, not everyone is the same here. I create a spreadsheet and enter a simple index of all entries in the registers that I use. For the entries which relate to families I am researching, I then add all detail in the entry. By amassing this data you ensure that you haven't missed anyone and it allows you to analyse entries and reach conclusions where possible mistakes have been made (and they are occasionally made in parish registers - if that's as clear as mud, I can give a quick example if it would help).

    Working through parish registers can answer a lot of questions which you have about families; it is something I recommend whenever possible.

  5. #15
    Wirral
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cgthornton1 View Post
    What is the best way to prove that the John & Mary THORNTON in the 1841 census (which lists a John THORNTON b. c1834) is the same George & Mary THORNTON in the 1851 census (which lists a Timothy THORNTON b. c1838)? Do I transcribe ALL the names of residents in the Sowe parish given in both the 1841 census and the 1851 census and then make the argument that the structure of the immediate neighbors is similar enough to make the conclusion I’m looking for…namely putting the 1841-John and the 1851-Timothy in the same house at the same time?
    This is assuming that the enumerator's path was the same at each census. In my experience, in a village the paths could be different every time. One year the enumerator went up one side of the road, then down the other side, then did the houses off the main road; another year he went backwards & forwards across the road, then did the side houses; another time he went all over the place! Don't forget, each time it was probably a different enumerator & it was 10 years apart. As long as the enumerator covered all the houses in his patch it didn't matter too much. After all, most houses in villages at that time weren't laid out in nice neat rows & they didn't have numbers anyway.

  6. #16
    cgthornton1
    Guest

    Default Hey AdeleE...THANKS!

    AdeleE,
    I don't think I acknowledged your contribution here...I just re-read the thread looking for a clue & realized that it was you that contributed the 1841 Census reference to John & Mary...I still have some work to do here, and I'm VERY hopeful that this is the family I'm looking for, but I believe that this error may have been THE significant brick wall that has been hindering my cousins all these years ...I'm new to this business & this forum has really provided some incredible insights in a VERY short period of time!
    Thank you, thank you, thank you yet again!
    ...seems I say that alot on this forum...ahh what the heck...THANKS
    Best,
    cgt

  7. #17
    cgthornton1
    Guest

    Default Comparison of 1841 & 1851 Census records

    I tried to examine the similarities of the population in the 1841 Census surrounding John & Mary THORNTON with that surrounding George & Mary THORNTON in the 1851 UK Census to try to make an assessment as to whether there is an error in the 1841 census (i.e., is the family of John & Mary THORNTON the same family as George & Mary THORNTON shown in the 1851 census, and John is misnamed in the 1841 record).

    THE 1841 UK CENSUS:

    I downloaded a transcription of the 1841 UK Census (HO107/1136) from here:
    https://www.hunimex.com/warwick/index.html

    The Civil Parish of Sowe can be found in Book 27, from Folio 3 page 1, to Folio 19 page 32 …this is approximately 800 people.
    I looked at the streets associated with the various people in this parish.
    John & Mary THORNTON are shown as being located within “Sowe Village” (as opposed to on any particular street). There were approximately 203 people in Sowe Village with 73 surnames among the 800 in Sowe Parish.

    There was only one family with the surname THORNTON among the 800 people in Sowe Parish (there were a total of 21 people with the THORNTON surname in HO107/1136, but only 1 family of 5 in Sowe Parish…John, Mary & the 3 kids).

    THE 1851 UK CENSUS:

    I could not find a transcription of the 1851 UK Census (HO1O7/2066). On ancestry.com, in the 1851 census where Timothy THORNTON is shown in the house of George & Mary, there are 49 pages containing approximately 975 people (I assume this is Sowe Parish). There was only one family with the surname THORNTON among the 975 people on these 49 pages (as best I could tell because it was manual inspection of images of the original documents).

    In the 1851 Census George & Mary THORNTON are listed on the first page (i.e., folio 586, page 1). I manually transcribed the first 6 pages of this census (based on what ancestry.com said the names were!) There were approximately 120 people with 34 different surnames onthese 6 pages.

    COMPARISON:

    I was able to identify 10 different surnames (comprising 54 people) in Sowe Village in the 1841 census that could CLEARLY be associated with the first 120 people in the 1851 census.

    Perhaps more importantly, on the page in the 1841 census in which John & Mary are shown (i.e., Book 27, Folio 6, Page 7), there are 4 other families…all 4 families could be identified in the 1851 census within the 120 people transcribed.

    Comments?

  8. #18
    Geoffers
    Guest

    Default

    The fact there is just the one family of THORNTONs and that there is so much similarity between the 1841 and 1851 census tends to support the idea that an error has been made - but it is not proof - however -

    I notice that the Warwickshire Record Office has an index to the Tithe Apportionments. The record office has associated maps as well (this will show exactly where the family lived).

    So, the index includes mention of George THORNTON in Sowe in 1844 (it also gives the plot number, number of houses occupied, size of the land holding and owner). Work through the entries for Sowe and see who was living around your chap. Now check the 1841 census and see what similarities exist. Again it is not proof, but you will be building up a body of corroboration for a theory.

    In your shoes I would be chomping at the bit to get a copy of the Tithe Map and then compare that with historical maps of the area (also try the old-maps web-site) and modern large scale maps as sold by the 'Ordnance Survey' and available through online booksellers.

  9. #19
    Wirral
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cgthornton1 View Post
    I tried to examine the similarities of the population in the 1841 Census surrounding John & Mary THORNTON with that surrounding George & Mary THORNTON in the 1851 UK Census to try to make an assessment as to whether there is an error in the 1841 census .............


    Comments?
    Using logic & a scientific approach to solve a genealogical puzzle? Wow! That doesn't happen often (or at least, not often enough for me!).

  10. #20
    cgthornton1
    Guest

    Default An Enumerator Extraordinaire!

    Thanks Mrs. Wirral!

    Okay…I looked at the "Tithe Apportionment Details: 1838-1853" for Warwickshire & I found only 2 THORNTONs listed…none were landowners! The 2 I found were both “Occupiers,” a John THORNTON and a George THORNTON

    John was associated with 30 properties: 2 were in the Diocese of Birmingham, and the Parish of Hampton in Arden (Hampton and Diddington, Kinwalsey and Balsall); 28 were in the Diocese of Birmingham, and the Parish of Elmdon.

    George was associated with 1 property…the details were:

    Plot Location:
    Parish Sowe (now Walsgrave on Sowe)
    Plot Number 219
    Perches 38
    Plot Details & Record Details:
    Land & Premises Two Houses and Gardens
    Document Ref CR0569-207
    Year of Record 1844
    Landowner Details:
    William Wale Brown
    Occupier Details:
    George Thornton
    Notes:
    More than one occupier – duplicate entry

    I then looked at all the Tithes Apportionment 1838-1853 for the entire Parish of Sowe. There were approximately 293 listings…Plot Number 219 (as indicated above) was apportioned to Occupier George THORNTON. The listings of the plots apportioned from 218 to 223 are shown below:

    Plot No. / Land & Premises / Landowner / Occupier
    218 / National School, Yard and Gard / The Trustees of National School / Joseph Staine
    219 / Two Houses and Gardens / William Wale Brown / George Thornton
    219 / Two Houses and Gardens / William Wale Brown / James Mills
    220 / Three Houses and Gardens / William Cawthorn / William Cawthorn
    221 / Two Houses and Gardens / Phoebe Mills / John Jennings
    222 / Six Houses and Gardens / Thomas (Trustees of) Smith / William Keene
    223 / Orchard / Thomas (Trustees of) Smith / Henry Quinney

    If you’ll recall my conclusion from my previous post:

    “…on the page in the 1841 census in which John & Mary are shown (i.e., Book 27, Folio 6, Page 7), there are 4 other families…all 4 families could be identified in the 1851 census within the 120 people transcribed.”

    The 5 surnames that appear on page 7, of Folio 6, in Book 27, of HO107/1136 are shown below:
    James Burditt,30,,Ribbon Weaver,WAR,
    Wm Cawthorn,35,,Ag Lab,WAR,
    Gittins,30,,Ag Lab,WAR,
    John Thornton,30,,Ag Lab,WAR,
    James Mills,50,,Ag Lab,WAR,
    Phebe Mills,,13,,WAR,

    SUMMARY:

    The family of George THORNTON lived in one of two houses on Plot 219; the other house was occupied by the family of James Mills, presumably the same James Mills in both the 1841 & 1851 census lists. Plot 220 was owned by William Cawthorn, presumably the same William Cawthorn in both the 1841 & 1851 census lists. Plot 221 was owned by Phoebe Mills, presumably the same Phoebe Mills in both the 1841 & 1851 census lists (note: while Phebe (sic) Mills is shown as age 13 in the 1841 Census, her DOB in the 1851 Census is given as 1771!) The other names listed on the 1841 census page, but not shown in the Tithes Apportionment (i.e., Burditt & Gittins), must have subleased from among the 15 homes shown in plots 219-222 (e.g., the Notes section for Plot 222 reads: “Trustees of Thomas Smith viz: Abel Rotherham and George Slater. And other occupiers”).

    CONCLUSION:

    I’m shocked the Enumerator in the 1841 UK Census spelled “THORNTON” correctly!

    P.S. Do I still need to look at the “Plot Map?”

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