Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13
  1. #1
    dotsage
    Guest

    Default Glen & Halliburton families, Kilsyth Scotland

    Searching for the families of John Glen b.circa 1820, Kilsyth, Stirling and Agnes Halliburton b.circa 1830 in perhaps Bothwell.
    John Glen was a flesher/butcher in Kilsyth. He had 6 or 7 children, two went to America and my great grandfather, Archibald Glen b.1872, went first to New Zealand then to Melbourne, Australia.
    I would particularly like to know the names of the parents of John and Agnes Glen, or any information on the Glen families of Kilsyth.
    thank you
    Ann

  2. #2
    Knowledgeable and helpful
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    U.K
    Posts
    501

    Default

    Hi Ann

    Looking at your dates of births this may not apply but...................

    There is a marriage of John Glen and Agnes Halyburton in Kilsyth Stirling in 1879. You can view this certificate on scotlandspeople.gov.uk for a small fee of £6 for 30 credits and the cerificate will also give you both John and Agnes parents names. To download this will cost you 6 credits 1 to view and 5 to download, you can then use your remaining credits to search for the parents marriage, siblings etc so they wont be wasted.
    Chasing Caseys

  3. #3
    Knowledgeable and helpful
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    U.K
    Posts
    501

    Default

    Ann, there is also this family on freecen.org.uk living in Shotts Lanarkshire

    1841 census

    HALYBURTON
    Father John (Jnr) 38 Gardner
    Mother Janet F 35

    Children - all born in Lanarkshire
    John 13
    Agness 9
    James 6
    Helen 3
    George 1

    The Agnes on this is of similar age to the one you mention, this by no means makes them yours but until we know more of what you know its a start.......................
    Chasing Caseys

  4. #4
    JAP1
    Guest

    Default

    From the IGI and censuses, it seems that John GLEN was married twice (or at least had children with two different ladies each of whom was named Agnes).

    John GLEN m Agnes CAMPBELL 1848 Glasgow
    (Agnes - from 1851 census - born Partick, Dumbarton)
    They had:
    Mary ca 1849, Kilsyth (from census)
    Alexander bap 1850 Kilsyth (from IGI)
    Robert ca 1855
    John b 1856 Kilsyth (from IGI)
    Andrew Dunn b 1858 (from IGI)

    John GLEN then had the following children (from IGI) with Agnes HALLIBURTON:
    in Kilsyth
    William b 1861
    Janet Anderson b 1865
    Thomas Haliburton b 1870
    Archibald b 1872
    and, in Kirkintilloch, Dunbarton
    Agnes b 1874

    In the 1861 census, John is a flesher with sons Alexander 10, Robert 6, John 4, and Andrew D 2 plus a servant - Agnes HOLBERTON (sic) 28 b Bothwell, Lanarkshire.

    By 1871, Agnes b Bothwell is listed as John's wife. The GLEN household is John 52, Agnes 37, John 74 (listed as John's son - probably this is a mistranscription for 14), William 4, Thomas H 7 mths.

    JAP

  5. #5
    Knowledgeable and helpful
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    U.K
    Posts
    501

    Default

    And freecen 1851 Kilsyth -Stirlingshire.............

    John Glen Head age 30 Occupation Flesher Butcher POB Stirlingshire - Kilsyth
    Agnes Glen Wife age 24 Butchers Wife POB Dunbartonshire Partick
    Mary Glen Daughter age 2 POB Stirlingshire - Kilsyth
    Alexr Glen Son age 1 POB Stirlingshire – Kilsyth

    If he was previously married then the above marriage date would make sense and by downloading the certificate would / should confirm it - if widowed etc...

    Just taken a look and it looks like an Agnes Glen - other name Campbell - died in 1860 Cumbernauld Dunbarton.
    Chasing Caseys

  6. #6
    JAP1
    Guest

    Default

    I wonder whether the age of William (4) in 1871 is a transcription error, or whether William b 1861 died and they named another son William?

    And it seems they had at least one more child - Charles ca 1879, born in Cadder, Lanarkshire

    1881 census
    Bridgend, Cadder Lanarkshire
    GLEN household is John 64, wife Agnes 48, and children Thomas 11, Archibald 8, Agnes 6 and Charles 2.

    1891 census
    Airdrie Road, Cumbernauld, Dumbartonshire
    GLEN household is John 74, wife Agnes 60 (her birthplace given as Shotts, LKS), Agnes 16, son Charles 12, and grandson Charles DUNCAN 4 (grandson born Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire)

    1901 census
    Wallacetown, Cardross, Dumbartonshire
    James CRAIG, Head, 25, a ploughman b Cumlodden, Argyleshire
    Agnes CRAIG, Wife, 36 b Kirkintilloch Dumbartonshire
    Agnes H CRAIG, Daur, 3 b Carnoss (sic) Dumbartonshire
    John CRAIG, Son, 1 b do
    Agnes GLEN, Visitor, 69, b Bothwell Lanarkshire

    You will probably be able to get the death certificates of each of John GLEN and AGNES (nee HALLIBURTON) GLEN from ScotlandsPeople. Depending on the knowledge of the informant, the certificates should have the name and occupation of the deceased's father, and the name and maiden surname of the deceased's mother.

    Good luck,

    JAP

  7. #7
    Knowledgeable and helpful
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    U.K
    Posts
    501

    Default

    One thing we forgot to add ...................... Welcome to B-G Forums !
    Chasing Caseys

  8. #8
    dotsage
    Guest

    Default Glen & Halliburton - thank you everybody!

    I have been trying to work this out for a long time, nothing added up, now I know why, I had no idea there were 2 Agnes'. This would explain the missing John Glen b. 1856 who we knew went to America, but I couldn't find listed as a child of Agnes Halliburton, that's because he was a child of the first Agnes (Campbell). His age was also wrong, the 1 seems to have been written as a 7, that made it all the more confusing.
    There was another child, Charles b.1879 Cadder, who apparently went to Texas. It may also be that the 2nd Agnes was not married by law to John Glen, she may have been a common law wife.
    I started all this research in the first place because I wanted to know a little of why so many people left places like Scotland and took their chances in countries like here in Australia. These people were not convicts being transported, they took a big chance going to fairly unknown places in ships that were quite terrible.
    I think that there may be some of the Glen descendants in New Zealand, these could be from the first lot of children, which may explain why my great grandfather, Archibald Glen,b.1872, first went to New Zealand. He married there and had 3 children, John (died young), Archibald, Hector, (my grandfather),then came to Australia in about 1905 and had another son, Malcolm.
    Thank you so much for your quick responses, I'm amazed!
    This is a terrific site, I don't know how I never found it earlier. Once again, thanks to all of you.
    from Ann, Melbourne, Australia

  9. #9
    JAP1
    Guest

    Default Glen - Halliburton Marriage

    Hi Ann,

    Quote Originally Posted by dotsage View Post
    ... His age was also wrong, the 1 seems to have been written as a 7, that made it all the more confusing. ...
    That might be a transcription error. Have you looked at the original? Originals can be viewed (for a fee) on ScotlandsPeople.

    ... It may also be that the 2nd Agnes was not married by law to John Glen, she may have been a common law wife. ...
    "Common law wife" was really not a term used in Scotland.

    Agnes could have been perfectly legally married to John without the "benefit of clergy".

    This is because Scots Law was different from the Law in England & Wales (and remains so in certain respects). Scots Law viewed marriage essentially as a contract between two people.

    Up until the Marriage (Scotland) Act of 1939 came into force in July 1940, three forms of marriage were recognised in Scotland:

    (a) marriage by declaration i.e. two people agreeing to marriage. There was not even any requirement for the declaration to be made in front of witnesses - however, most couples preferred to make their declaration in front of witnesses in order to mark the occasion and (importantly) so that the marriage could be proved

    (b) marriage by habit and repute (e.g. a couple who lived together, had children together, and were viewed as man and wife by their community)

    (c) a promise of marriage followed by consummation.

    Marriage by a Minister was essentially a version of the first form. Normally Banns would be proclaimed in the Church on two or three successive Sundays, after which (if there had been no objections) the couple would be married (i.e. would make their declaration of marriage) with the Minister conducting a ceremony; often this took place in the bride's home or in the Minister's home.

    Of course the Church couldn't gainsay the Law but what it did do was to describe marriages with benefit of clergy as 'Regular' and all other (perfectly legal) marriages as 'Irregular' – a most unpleasant choice of words in my view.

    The local Minister did not like "irregular" marriages at all but there was nothing he could do about it; the marriage was legal. But he might well have pressured and/or shamed the couple until they agreed to have their marriage recognized by the church. The Minister would then record something in the parish register such as: 'John A and Elizabeth B produced lines of irregular marriage dated (place) the xth day of x, xxxx and were here declared married'. So now they were not only legally married under Scots Law but also in the eyes of the Church (the blessing of the Church might have been given with a good or a bad grace!). Sometimes the parties were rebuked by the Church and sometimes they were required by the Church to pay a fine (often paid to the parish poor box).

    From 1855 (when Statutory Registration started in Scotland) until the Marriage (Scotland) Act 1939 came into force in July 1940, marriages involving the church were entered into the Statutory Register as a matter of course but other marriages – though perfectly legal – were not unless special application was made.

    Many couples who had contracted an "Irregular" Marriage did, of course, want to have a marriage certificate. But they could only have their marriage formally registered in the Statutory Register and thus be issued with a Marriage Certificate if they could prove to the Registrar that they actually had married each other. The standard mechanism for this was
    (a) to obtain a formal Warrant of Sheriff Substitute (i.e. documentary proof that the Sheriff Substitute accepted that the couple had married each other), and
    (b) then to take the Warrant along to the Registrar and have the marriage registered and a marriage certificate issued.

    This could be done promptly, or within a specified time period, or with special dispensation or court proceedings well after the event.

    But the marriage remained legal (and children of the marriage were legitimate) whether or not it had received a Warrant of Sheriff Substitute and whether or not it had been registered; there was no requirement for either.

    The certificate issued by the Registrar would include reference to the marriage having been ‘Irregular’ and to the Warrant of Sheriff Substitute. This continued with simpler procedures and ease until the 1939 Act finally introduced civil marriage in a Registry Office by a Registrar. However, up till then, the misleading word 'Irregular' still appeared on marriage certificates – and has caused much thoroughly unnecessary concern and worry to people researching their family trees.

    It would be interesting to download the 1879 marriage posted by Chasing Caseys to see (assuming that they are your people) whether it was a belated marriage conducted by a minister or whether it was just that John & Agnes wanted to have their marriage entered into the Statutory Register and so obtain a marriage certificate (which would involve certification by a Sheriff's Warrant).

    Anyway, it's great that you have been able to clarify your puzzle!

    Regards,

    JAP

  10. #10
    JAP1
    Guest

    Default A thought

    Hi again Ann,

    Given John GLEN snr's birthplace, approximate dob, the fact that he named his first son Alexander, and the middle name of Dunn for one of his sons, I wonder whether he might be the following from the IGI ...

    John GLEN, bap 13 Sep 1818, Kilsyth, parents Alexander GLEN & Catharine DUNN.
    Their marriage and some other children are in the IGI.

    Cheers,

    JAP

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Select a file: