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  1. #11
    Jan1954
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    Hello eugenia - welcome to Brit-Gen,

    Unfortunately, Xumas has not visited the forum since soon after posting their original message. However, they are still a member and hopefully your post will generate an email to them that calls them back.

    Meanwhile, good luck with your research.

  2. #12
    marionandpaul
    Guest

    Default Louisa Wheeler My grandmother Jand her sister

    Quote Originally Posted by eugenia View Post
    Hi Xumas, I have a dear old friend (94) whose Mother was Louisa Wheeler. I'm almost certain she went to this school. He was brought up in an orphanage from the age of six, knows almost nothing about his family so I was wondering if your family is part of his. Wouldn't that be wonderful. He lived with his Grandmother at 35 Nursery Road Croydon. She died in 1924 then he was put in the home. He remembers that his mother had a sister and also a brother Tom

    cheers Eugenia
    My grandmother Janet and her sister Florence were put into St Marys industrial School
    In about 1909. My grandmother and her sister were born in St Giles, Reading, under the
    surname of Roach. Their mother was Jane Garland and their father was Thomas Roach. I think the family was very poor and the address where the two girls were born was in what was then a rough area with lots of families sharing living accommodation.

    I think things went wrong between the parents and the children were possibly roaming the streets. Janet and Florences mother Jane (Garland) seems to have got together with a Mr Wheeler and his two daughters Louise and Bertha. Shortly after the families got together and possibly with a court order the children were put into the home/school with the Louise one of the Wheeler girls. I think Bertha was older and did not get put into the school.
    My grandmother Janet was at the school until she was about 14 years old. The nuns gave them a good education although life was pretty tough for them at the school.
    Florence my grans sister died at the school when she was about 14/16 years old of TB.
    My grandmother mentioned an older brother called Tom who had a building business and did quite well.
    I think this does sound like the same family and I am sorry I did not get in touch sooner.
    I did manage to get a copy of the children's registration but it did not have much information on it.
    I would like to find out as much as I can about the school and the families if possible.
    Had my grandmother not gone into the school she may well have ended up on the streets. As it was the very tough life at the school made her a very strong person. She lived until she was 95 years old and I think she was reasonably happy even though
    she had a very hard time as a youngster.

  3. #13
    lancaster.jim
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    The recent posting prompted me to think about the original request for help. In Victorian times, life was much harder than today and the hardship was recorded by such as Dickens and Marx. In spite of their bleak accounts, there was concern in many parts of society about the hardship. There were benevolent employers and the churches set up organisations to help, the Waifs and Strays Society on the Anglican Church is an example. The Catholic church was no different, individual priests sought to provide for their own area and most dioceses set up Children's Protection and Rescue Societies. Such efforts lead to the establishment of orphanages and later residential industrial schools. These were often operated by a religious order. This happened in the diocese where Croydon is situated, St George's Home for Boys is an example.

    After the 1939-45 War, society's attitudes to the care of children in need began to change and the need for large orphanages and similar institutions diminished. Many were closed and demolished. Later, around 1970, the need for adopted children to find their birth parents was recognised. This led to the collection of surviving records by the relevant child care authorities. In the case of Catholic establishments, the relevant authority was/is the local diocese through its child care organisation.

    The society for the Archdiocese of Southwark, founded in Victorian times, is still active and provides for the corresponding needs of today, adoption and fostering. This society is now known as the Cabrini Society and has a web-page at https://www.cabrini.org.uk/ From the home page there is a link to a history page that has a small amount of information about its history. There is also a link to a page 'What we do' and this includes information about 'Access to Records Services'. Contacting this service should enable people to determine what records, if any, survive and how they can be accessed for the Archdiocese.

    For other diocese, the appropriate local diocesan body can be found listed in the Catholic Directory, published annually and should be available through your local library.

    Hope this helps

    Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.)

  4. #14
    marionandpaul
    Guest

    Default Louisa Wheeler My grand

    Quote Originally Posted by eugenia View Post
    Hi Xumas, I have a dear old friend (94) whose Mother was Louisa Wheeler. I'm almost certain she went to this school. He was brought up in an orphanage from the age of six, knows almost nothing about his family so I was wondering if your family is part of his. Wouldn't that be wonderful. He lived with his Grandmother at 35 Nursery Road Croydon. She died in 1924 then he was put in the home. He remembers that his mother had a sister and also a brother Tom

    cheers Eugenia
    Dear Eugenia,
    I do think this sounds the right family although it still seems very muddled.
    I looked at the 1901 census under Augusta Louisa Roach and found the family in Birmingham Warwickshire. Both Bertha their sister and Florence were on the census. My grandmother was not born until 1904 so she would not have been mentioned.
    On the census the wife of Thomas Roach is down as Bertha which is even more muddling. The birth cert I have for Florence says she was born in Reading and that is why I have not previously thought the family on this 1901 census was right.
    The census states the family was living in Newhaven, Sussex in 1901. My grandmother and Florence are shown on their birth certs as having been born in Reading, Berkshire and it seems that Louisa was born in Birmingham, Warwickshire from the 1901 census.
    Even though things do not seem to fit I still have the feeling it is right.

    On the register I have from the school the fathers name is down as Thomas Wheeler for all three children. Their mother is down as Joanna Wheeler.
    Louisa is down as Louisa Wheeler, Florence is recorded as Florentia Wheeler and my grandmother Janet is down as Joanna Wheeler. They were all baptised 18th April 1908
    Louisa dob19th July 1897
    Florence dob 9th May 1900
    Janet dob 26th June 1904

    My grandmother told us the nuns changed her Christian name when she was admitted to the school.

    On my grandmothers birth cert it says her father was Thomas Roach and her mother was Jane Garland.
    Florence has the same parents names on her birth cert.

    Hope you can make some sense of this.

    Marion

  5. #15
    marionandpaul
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    Dear Eugenia,

    Many thanks for your reply.
    I have looked at the 1901 census under Augusta Louisa Roach and have found her in Birmingham Warwickshire with her family but the census says she was born in 1898 in Birmingham Warwickshire and living in Newhaven Sussex. There is a sister Bertha and Florence mentioned and a father Thomas but the mothers name is Bertha Roach not Jane. I wonder if this is your Augusta Louise. Even though some things do not match there are the three sisters mentioned all with about the right birth date.
    What certificates does your friends great granddaughter have?
    Best wishes Marion

  6. #16
    eugenia
    Guest

    Default

    Dear Marion,

    Things do seem to be in a muddle. The birth certificate held by the G Grandaughter says that Augusta Louisa Roache was born 19th July 1897 in Norwich. Father's name Thomas Roache mother's Jane Garland. I have a copy of a letter from the Catholic Probation Officer about Louisa Wheeler [same person with a name change] stating that she went to the Industrial School at the age of eight [1905] leaving at the age of 16 [1913] to go to Canada. She apparently stayed for five years. Returning owing to the illness and death of her sister [could this have been Florence] and her mother's illness. When she married Peter Smits her name was given as Wheeler, with her father being Thomas Wheeler. But her death certificate confirms her maiden name as Roache. She did have a brother Tom, because both my old friend and his daughter met him. Have been told that his wife's name was Dolly.
    Maybe I have an entirely different person. But some things do fit. Hopefully we can work it out.

    Cheers Eugenia

  7. #17
    marionandpaul
    Guest

    Default

    Dear Eugenia,
    Do you still have the address of the Catholic probation services as I would like to see if there are any records of my grandmother.
    Are you a member of ancestry because on the 1911 census Louisa, Florence and Jane (Janet) are all on the Institution Transcript for St Mary's Industrial School.
    Louisa is 13 years old
    Florence is 10 years old
    Jane is 6 years old
    My grandmother also emigrated to Canada in her early twenties but came back three years later after a failed love affair. She arrived back in about 1929.
    My grandmother had a hearing problem which started when she was in her twenties and may have been hereditary. She was also quite striking to look at so there may be a family likeness. My mother also had red hair which could have come from her father who I never met but may be a family trait.

  8. #18
    marionandpaul
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marionandpaul View Post
    Dear Eugenia,
    Do you still have the address of the Catholic probation services as I would like to see if there are any records of my grandmother.
    Are you a member of ancestry because on the 1911 census Louisa, Florence and Jane (Janet) are all on the Institution Transcript for St Mary's Industrial School.
    Louisa is 13 years old
    Florence is 10 years old
    Jane is 6 years old
    My grandmother also emigrated to Canada in her early twenties but came back three years later after a failed love affair. She arrived back in about 1929.
    My grandmother had a hearing problem which started when she was in her twenties and may have been hereditary. She was also quite striking to look at so there may be a family likeness. My mother also had red hair which could have come from her father who I never met but may be a family trait.
    Florence died in Croydon in the 2nd quarter 1916 found death on Ancestry but have not sent for the certificate yet.

    Best wishes Marion

  9. #19
    eugenia
    Guest

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    Hi Marion,

    Sorry I do not have the address of the Catholic Probation Services. The copy of the letter I have was in Dennis's file that we were able to get on a visit to the Catholic Children' Society. The address for them is Catholic Children's Society
    49 Russell Hill Road
    PURLEY
    Surrey
    CR8 2XB
    We found them very helpful, so maybe you will find something there.

    best wishes Hillary

  10. #20
    marionandpaul
    Guest

    Default

    Dear Hillary,
    I did a bit of searching on Ancestry last night after I found a 1911 census in my notes from a while ago.
    The 1911 census was taken in Croydon with the Wheeler family living at 54, Forster Road, West Croydon and I had saved it because it was in Croydon and Bertha was mentioned.
    In the census it says that Both Thomas Wheeler and Jane Wheeler are 47 years old which is two years older than the 1901 census for the Roach family in Newhaven Sussex. It does say though that Thomas Wheeler was born in Aston Birmingham. Jane Wheeler has her birth place as An coats Manchester. The couple are said to have been married for 20 years.

    Interestingly Bertha is 17 years old which is the same as the 1901 Newhaven census and she is said to have been born in Carmarthenshire Wales.
    I then looked at Bertha,s marriage cert which was in 1914 in Croydon and found she was Bertha Alice and the witness signature was Mary either Joanne ore Jane Wheeler. Thomas Wheeler was said to have been deceased.
    What do you make of these findings.
    Marion xxx

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