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  1. #1
    rivergirl
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    Default De Whale of Normandy

    De Whale of Normandy

    I have been given the following information, on the De Whale family of Normandy, England and Ireland, in connection to an Irish family I am researching, with no supporting sources of where this information came from.
    Supposedly it was researched by a Major in the British Army who died in 1987.


    The "De Whale" family of Normandy.
    It is said that Sir Ralph De Whale and his sons Arthur De Whale, Richard De Whale and possibly another son Philip De Whale came to England in 1066 with William the Conqueror.

    The family had estates/holdings at Swindon, Andover, Shaftesbury, Hawkhurst nr Hastings, Cuckfield, Maidstone, Welwyn, Chelmsford, chesterfield and Uttoxeter.
    Sir Ralph returned to Normandy in 1074 to administer his lands, the "Old De Whale area" in the west of Normandy. Sir Ralph was killed at Caen c 1075 and his son Richard returned to Normandy.
    His descendants are said to have been powerful Barons, Mayors and Bishops in Normandy for the next 300 years.

    Arthur De Whale was said to have gone to Ireland, as a Field Commander to Strongbow?, and had land in Co Waterford, Kilkenny and Wexford. The name changed to Whalenguile. This name only lasted 1 generation and was then shortened too Whalan in Ireland.
    The Norman campaigns in Ireland didnt start to 1169/70, so I'm not convinced about this part.


    Is there any way to verify any of this. I do feel its a "story", but would like to establish if this family did exist.
    Ive looked at Doomsday online and National Archives, and cant see De whale.
    I have found reference to a Johannes De Whale/Quale in Westmoreland, England c1300, and a Margaret De Whale/Quale marrying De Lowther in Westmoreland c1320?.
    There is also a village named Whale near Lowther in Westmorland, which I believe is named from these families.

    Regards
    Frances

  2. #2
    Geoffers
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivergirl
    Is there any way to verify any of this. I do feel its a "story", but would like to establish if this family did exist.
    Ive looked at Doomsday online and National Archives, and cant see De whale. I have found reference to a Johannes De Whale/Quale in Westmoreland, England c1300, and a Margaret De Whale/Quale marrying De Lowther in Westmoreland c1320?.
    Do check for variant spellings - eg. 'de Wale'

    If this was a titled family, there may be some record of granting of arms with the Royal College of Arms

    There may be some recod of the family in a visitation - copies of visitiations are available on CD from The Parish Chest

    Try an advanced search on TNA

    If this family held land from the crown, then on the death of one of them, there would have been an inquisition post mortem.

    Use a search engine to look for 'British History online' and see if you can find reference to the name.

    no supporting sources of where this information came from
    The research may be accurate, but I never trust any 'research' which is not backed by information on sources used which can be independently verified.

    There is also a village named Whale near Lowther in Westmorland, which I believe is named from these families.
    I don't think so, Whale in this context just means 'hill', derived from the Old Scandinavian word 'hvall'. So, Whale is just a descriptive name meaning 'the place by a hill'.

    The family may have held property there and taken their name from the place. However, as your appreciate there are a lot of hills in Britain and in that part of the country settled by the Scandinavians (Vikings) there may be other 'places by the hill.'

    Generally people take names from places and not the other way arond - there are a very few exceptions but I doubt this is one of them.

  3. #3
    rivergirl
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    Hi Geoffers,

    Thanks for answering.
    I have been trying all variants I can think of.
    Ive looked for the towns mentioned, in the NA Doomsday, and cant see any reference to any names that look similar.

    I'll try the College of Arms and the Parish Chest..

    I have been sent more information on the De Whale family and their connection to Ireland, and the name I am reserching. The link is very tenuous.
    They say their family were in Wexford with landholdings in 1070s. Strongbow didnt go to Ireland until 1169/70.

    Regards
    Frances

  4. #4
    Geoffers
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivergirl
    I have been sent more information on the De Whale family and their connection to Ireland, and the name I am researching. The link is very tenuous.
    In reads as though you are researching a line back in Ireland and you're trying to connect this to another family from sometime earlier by bringing their family forwards in time. If this is the case, be wary of investing too much effort into this strategy as it is a tricky thing to do successfully, especially if the gap is too great.

  5. #5
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    Reaney's view (Origin of English Surnames) is that WHALE derives from a nickname. Whale was used loosely for any large aquatic animal.

    However reputable standard reference works on surnames may be, they can never be the last word. The surest way is to trace your ancestors back to the point of origin of the name, which is of course rarely possible.

  6. #6
    rivergirl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffers View Post
    In reads as though you are researching a line back in Ireland and you're trying to connect this to another family from sometime earlier by bringing their family forwards in time. If this is the case, be wary of investing too much effort into this strategy as it is a tricky thing to do successfully, especially if the gap is too great.
    Not quite. I co-admin a Whalen-O'Faolain yDNA Project. The origins of O'Faoalin is Irish, they were part of the Deisi Tribe in Waterford, and another branch were of the Ossory/Osraige in Co Kilkenny and Laois.
    Phelan, Whelan, Whalen, Whalon, Whalan, Whalin are all variants.

    Someone from an English Whalan family line has sent us information saying that the Whalans in Ireland may be descended from a Norman family named De Whale, Whalenguille and Whalan, who held lands in Co Waterford and Wexford 1070 onwards, as well as lands in England.

    We are investigating if this has any substance.

  7. #7
    rivergirl
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    I should just like to clarify, I am not trying to make a link between the O'Faolain and to any of the De Whales of old or todays Whalans of English origin.

    If this information provided on the De Whales in Ireland is correct, it will give us another possible origin for some of our O'Faolain/Whelan/Whalan family lines in Ireland. Wether that will be seen in the yDNA results is another question, not relavant to this thread.

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