The death of FLORENCE TREASA FRAY-COGGINS

[Pam Downes]

Free BMD search=
Birth Agnes Josephine Fray jun 1907 Reading
Death Agnes Josephine Fray 2 yrs dec 1909 Reading

1911 Census search=
Josephine Fray 3 in 1911 census, Reading
Florence 9
Frederick 7
Agnes 32
Bertie 32
All living at 127 Sherwood St Reading

I did a Free BMD search and can not find any other Agnes or Josephine born in ANY ditrict around this time.

There is a big problem, Josephine appears to be borne 1907 died 1909 but 3 years old in the 1911 census what am I doing wrong.

If you've copied the message wholesale from 2009 then I do think you ought to check out FreeBMD again as there are loads of Josephine birth registrations for 1907-1908. Ditto for Agnes. However, if you mean Agnes Josephine, that is not what you said.

I notice that on the 1911 census they seem to have listed all their children, though they say three of the six have died. Red marks have been made through three of the names (presumably by the enumerator). Is it possible that he crossed through one of the others by mistake instead of crossing through Josephine? You need to check out the others.

Pam (who's off for a late lunch)

[PAULMUNCEY]

Florence Fray Born 2/12/1901 Hartlepool, I have the birth certificate
Brother, Frederick Frances b 11/7/1903 Hartlepool, I have the birth certificate
By 1911 (census) they were living in reading with their parents.

Florence had a child, Ronnie Fray b 17/9/1921 no father, I have the birth certificate.
By this time she was living with Frederick Wilmer Coggins in Rotherham they did not marry.

In 1923 she had Eric Fray,
After this time she had 4 more children 1924 Hilda (my mother, whose birth was not registered)1927 Roy-1930 Geoffrey-1932 another sister, all raised as Coggin/s in Rotherham.
Sometime after the 1932 birth they all moved to Blackpool except for Ronnie.

On 20/6/1936 she married Edwin Harold Coggins in Rotherham (Frederick Wilmer’s younger cousin) I have the certificate.
She fibbed about her age knocking off 5 years and fibbed about her father being deceased, he died in 1943.
Leaving my mother as a young teenager as home maker.
Mother told me 2 things that only serve to muddy the water.
She told me,
Florence was arrested for bigamy and taken to Manchester, mum only about 13 took her father's best coat and pawned it to rise money for train tickets for herself and little sister to travel to Manchester.
Edwin at some time came to see my mother to find out what had happened to Florence because he wanted to remarry.
Edwin said he employed a private detective to find her; he reported back that Florence had perished in the last air raid WW2 on Liverpool (10/1/1942).I can find no record.
By 1939 register Edwin is at home in Rotherham with his mum and dad, no Florence
Edwin remarried Emily Bagnall 27/3/1954 in Rotherham, he states on the marriage certificate that he is a widower.
Can anybody help I would dearly like to find what happened to her.
Yours Paul Muncey

[almach]

Hello Paul, and welcome to Brit-Gen Foums.

First I must ask are any of the names you mention living people, if so we will need to remove their names as Brit - Gen doesn't allow the publishing to the site of living people's names.

Moving on to Florence, have you seen this article which relates to her? Florence was living in Huddersfield at the time of the charge.

Leeds Mercury 26 February 1938
False Declaration Charge
Married Woman's Alleged Pose as Spinster

[Megan Roberts]

Did you know that she spent 1 month in prison in 1922 for false pretence? There are newspaper reports of the affair on Findmypast. At the time she was living in Rotherham.

There are also newspaper reports of an actress called Florence Fray in the late 1940s, but whether or not this is the same person I can't tell.

[Pam Downes]

Paul, I have once again moved your newest post to your original thread about Florence.
Duplicate posts about the same person are not allowed as it leads to confusion and wasted time with duplicated research.

I assume after our PMs that all of your mother's siblings are deceased. If not, let us know and a mod will amend your post.

Pam

[almach]

I've received this message via PM from Paul. "I can confirm that none of the named are alive"

[PAULMUNCEY]

I looked up the following,
Leeds Mercury 26 February 1938
False Declaration Charge
Wow, wow what a life she had, spent many years not knowing if it was true.
a big thanks to almach.

[Megan Roberts]

I thought that I would have a look back over this thread and see if there was anything new that I could add.

As Leslie says in post#20 the 1911 census form is decidedly odd with children’s names being crossed out. Having checked the GRO death indexes, whilst I think the intention was to remove the deceased children it was not done correctly:

Annie Elizabeth’s birth was registered in 1905 and her death in 1906
Agnes Josephine’s birth was registered in 1907 and her death in 1908
Albert Percy’s birth was registered in 1909 and his death in 1910
Bertie William’s birth was registered in 1908 and he was still alive in 1911 – in fact in 1939 he was alive and well and married and living in Pocklington, Yorkshire.


With regard to Edwin Coggin’s employment of a private detective, and his subsequent remarriage, when he declared himself a widower. It is possible that he may have used that information to have had Florence legally declared dead, if she had been missing for more than 7 years:
https://www.gov.uk/get-declaration-presumed-death
What I haven’t been able to discover is whether or there are any records of such actions and if so where these are. It’s possible that if you approach the National Archives that they may be able to advise you.


This next train of thought is very left field, but it’s based on the premise that there was only one Florence Fray in the 1911 census. There are 3 marriages for a Florence Fray before the one that you know about in 1936. The legal age for a girl to marry before 1929 was 12 (and for a boy it was 14), so based on that I would include:
1913 Lichfield
1918 Wolverhampton
1918 Birmingham

[PAULMUNCEY]

Hi Megan
I looked at the 2 newspaper reports, the information there was excellent.
All the things mother had told me were true, albeit her info was inaccurate.
In February, 1918, she was bound over and sent to a Salvation Army home, where she stayed nine months, the next 12 months she spent at Thorp.
So the 2 1918 entries look like non starters.
The 1913 Litchfield entry does not work for me either.
In 1922 she was convicted in Rotherham of obtaining goods by false pretences.
In 1938 she was in court, she posed as a spinster with view to marrying a Charles Booth.
As she fibbed on her marriage to Edwin Harold, in court on more than one occasion, I am told she also did readings/tarot on the side for extra money, I don't think I will ever find what happened to her after 1938 as I may not even know what name she is using, maybe a movie would be made of her life if anybody would believe it
Yours Paul

[PAULMUNCEY]

The news paper article dose not state if Florence was sent down, but even if she was, prisoners were also included in the 1939 register.
I cannot find her in the 1939 register.
Is it possible that she emigrated.
Yours Paul