John Dickins

[Caliandris]

The document which originally started me off on my Family History, twenty years ago, was a handwritten copy of a baptismal certificate from 1824, for George Dickins, who was born in Trysull in Staffordshire. My first aim was to find out if he was related to me and how. I knew my grandfather's mother was called Dickins, and eventually traced her line back through her father George Robey Dickins, born 1850, to George Dickins of the certificate.

George Dickins was born at Trysull, at Woodford Grange, which is a extra parochial farmhouse which is sometimes included in the census returns for Trysull and sometimes not, and on one occasion apparently appears twice.

I have discovered a great deal about the family that lived at Woodford Grange. John Dickins was the father of George Dickins, and was a soldier and farmer. His eldest surviving son, Robert Archibald Dickins was a Lieutenant Colonel in the Staffordshire Militia, and he took over as tenant of Woodford Grange, while his father seems to have gone to live in Meretown, Forton in Staffordshire, which is where Ann, his wife, was living alone in 1851 with her daughters.

The older children of John Dickins, like Robert Archibald, were born in Birmingham, and have St John's Deritend as their place of birth. It is in Warwickshire. I have made contact with descendents of George Dickins brother, John Dickins (born 11 May 1818 as Charles John), who emigrated to Australia, and I have traced the whereabouts of his sisters through the census returns, one of whom became a schoolteacher.

John Dickins himself must have been born around 1772-1776, but I have no clue where he was born. I have been to the national archives and sought out the information for his army record, because he was shown as a captain in various regiments on his children's bith certificates. Unfortunately, I found nothing to locate him in all the records I searched, and there always seemed to be gaps where his records ought to be (although he does appear on the relevant army lists). There would wither be a gap between 1815 and 1830, when he finally retired, or there would be a gap in the Ds etc.

After I had been researching a couple of years, I came across a book written by Arthur Sparrow called The History of Church Preen", which included a genealogy for the Dickins Family. Arthur Sparrow was an amateur historian who was Lord of the Manor of Preen by the end of the 19th century, and he had compiled a book about the history of the manor. In the 18th century, John Dickins had lost the manor when he mortgaged it and was unable to pay his debts.

According to the genealogy, Robert Archibald Dickins was the son of John Dickins, Captain R.N. and he was the son of the John Dickins who held Preen Manor. As a Sparrow administered Robert Archibald's will, I don't know whether they were dependent on his information that this link was true. It IS certainly true that John Dickins, who married Mary Fowler, daughter of Sir William Forler of Harnage Grange, lost Preen Manor. He was imprisoned for debt, and there are a variety of dates given for his demise. I have not tracked him down either.

I have a vast wealth of knowledge about the Dickins family before this point, but I have NO idea whether the link between "my" Dickins at Woodford Grange and those Dickins is a real one. Interestingly, a Dickins from that line owned Woodford Grange after it had passed through a couple of hands on the dissolution of the monasteries. I did write a long time ago to the people who now own Woodford Grange, but they didn't reply to my letter.

I must admit I thought that researching John Dickins at the National Archives would give me the information I had been looking for so long, but I came up with very little, except some confirmation that there was a John Dickins in the 90th regiment of foot, which is the regiment mentioned in most of the children's baptismal records. There is some doubt about whether the Cornet F-John Dickins is him in 1800 in the First Regiment of Dragoons, but I am pretty certain that the John Dickins in the Seventh Garrison Battalion in 1806 is him. (and noted that Patrick Cambell is the other Captain, as there i a Campbell/Dickins marriage in Stafford around this time).

From 1809 he is listed as Captain in the 90th Foot, and stays there until he goes on half pay and then retires.

I could find no information about him that I didn't know from the army lists and other records. So I still don't know where he was born. If he was the son of the John Dickins who owned and lost Preen Manor, I don't know where John Dickins snr was after he left Preen. That family had a lot of land all over Staffordshire and Shropshire and I know Mary Dickins nee Fowler had an annuity from her father, Sir William Fowler.

Any suggestions, information, ideas all gratefully received!
Thank you!
Fee

[Caliandris]

As the History of Church Preen is out of copyright, and deals with people long dead, I am assuming it is ok to publish it here.

This is just a small section, and I doubt its accuracy for a lot of reasons. The death of the John Dickins who owed the money to Joseph Girder is wrong, as shown by his will. Arthur Sparrow, the author, has the same date of death for a father and son, which could be true, if there were an epidemic, or might be a transcription error, hard to tell without confirmation.

John Dickins, father of Robert Archibald Dickins was a Captain in the army, not the Navy. If this was wrong, even though Sparrow knew Robert Archibald, it makes me wonder what else he got wrong... or was deliberately misinformed about.

---excerpt, with notes, begins---
John Dickins's eldest son,
Thomas Dickins of Leaton, b. 1653, borrowed £400 in 1679, and charged his estates with £600 for his younger son, Thomas. He was buried at Preen, December 21st, 1710, leaving issue by Mary his wife,
I. John, his heir.
II, Thomas, of Leebotswood, m. at Preen, May 29th, 1728, Mary Martin of that parish.

The eldest son--
John Dickins of Leaton and Preen, whose mortgagees sold Preen July 30th, 1749, to Elizabeth Price (see page 54). In 1709 he owed £1056 to Joseph Girder, Serjeant-at-Law. He m. Mary, dau of Sir William Fowler, of Harnage Grange, having settled an annuity of £150 upon

(footnote: A John Dickins was buried at Preen May 5th, 1718, but I do not know to whom the entry refers.)
end of page 45

her. He was buried at Preen, February 19th, 1760,(Fee's notes: no, Sparrow got this wrong. John Dickins who owed the money to Joseph Girder died in 1744) having had issue a son and three daughters--
I. Richard, his heir.
I. Mary, m John Moreton of St Giles, weaver
II. Hester, m Mr Wilson.
III. Diana, m Francis Jones, of Lindion, Derbyshire.

The only son--
Richard Dickins, sometime of Preen, was buried there October 28th, 1764, leaving, by Ann, his wife, two sons and four daughters--
I. John, his heir.
II Fowler, bapt. at Preen, June 23rd, 1749.
I. Ann, bapt. there, September 14th, 1746.
II. Elinor, buried there, March 31st, 1751.
III. Ursula, bapt. there, June 26th, 1751.
IV. Mary, m there, July 30th, 1790, John Mansell, of Much Wenlock (who died there and was buried at Preen, April 20th, 1784). She was also buried at Preen, July 30th, 1790.

The elder son--
John Dickins, born in 1737, was father of John Dickins, Captain RN, of Woodford Grange, Staffordshire; b. 1772, m twice and had many children, one of whom was--
Robert Archibald Dickins of Woodford Grange, a Major in the Yeomanry, who died at an advanced age in 1893, and was buried at Trysull, having had an only son, Bramah, who died unmarried in his father's lifetime.
---excerpt ends---

Fowler Dickins seems to be ancestor of quite a few people in the US, so I am assuming he, or his descendant, emigrated.
bws
Fee

[Geoffers]

1824...George Dickins, who was born in Trysull in Staffordshire....at Woodford Grange......

John Dickins was the father of George Dickins, and was a soldier and farmer. His eldest surviving son, Robert Archibald Dickins was a Lieutenant Colonel in the Staffordshire Militia..........The older children of John Dickins, like Robert Archibald, were born in Birmingham, and have St John's Deritend as their place of birth.

John Dickins himself must have been born around 1772-1776, but I have no clue where he was born. I have been to the national archives and sought out the information for his army record, because he was shown as a captain in various regiments on his children's bith certificates.

So, if I have got this correct, you have traced ancestry back to George DICKINS and his dad, John was an officer in the Militia and a farmer?

You then wish to try and show whether there is a connection to a DICKINS family who held the manor at Preen??

There then seems to be some confusion as Robert Archibald DICKINS was according to your research the eldest son of John DICKINS, Lt.Col Staffs Militia? - Whereas the history of Chuch Preen records him as the son of John DICKINS, Captain RN.

Have I read this correct so far, or do I need new glasses? - or does it seem that there were two John DICKINS?

Some immediate thoughts:

1. Any wills? Do they throw any light on things?

2. Oath rolls? Any sign of your chap in them and if so what do they record?

3. If someone was a Captain RN, I'd be inclined to try the Lieutenants passing certificates which sometimes come with supporting evidence such as baptismal certificates. According to N.A.M Rodger's bible on RN records, the passing certificates 1781-1819 are in ADM6/89-116

4. Any luck searching Access to Archives for mention of the family?

5. Any supporting evidence in parish registers?

6. Any records in the London Gazette

7. Any notices in The Times (try using a search engine for 'Archive Times Online')

[Caliandris]

Hi there,

Thanks for replying :-). I think the RN bit is either a mistake on the part of Sparrow or a deliberate lie by Robert Archibald Dickins. John Dickins was definitely the father of Archibald Dickins and all the other (there are LOTS) sons and daughters born at St John's Deritend and Woodford Grange, Trysull.

He was definitely in the army and not the royal navy. The only mention of navy in everything I have read and looked at is that mention by Sparrow in the book BUT the fact that he has that wrong makes me very suspicious about the information that takes Robert Archibald back to the Church Preen Dickins through John Dickins and John Dickins.

Your other questions:
1. Any wills? Do they throw any light on things?
I have the will of Robert Archibald and it simply mentions neices, ones I know about. I have bought about 10 wills but can only link one to the family, no will for John Dickins from Woodford Grange.

2. Oath rolls? Any sign of your chap in them and if so what do they record?
Hmm not sure where I look for these?

3. If someone was a Captain RN, I'd be inclined to try the Lieutenants passing certificates which sometimes come with supporting evidence such as baptismal certificates. According to N.A.M Rodger's bible on RN records, the passing certificates 1781-1819 are in ADM6/89-116
I really don't think he was in the Navy, especially since I know he was in the 90th reg of foot as a Captain. Either Robert Archibald was deliberately upping the status of his father or Sparrow misunderstood.

4. Any luck searching Access to Archives for mention of the family?
Yes, for the church preen people, but not for the others and not useful to the links.

5. Any supporting evidence in parish registers?
Well I have copies of the births of the children but they don't give more than I have told you. JOhn Dickins was apparently married twice, and appears to have been married twice to Anns, but I still don't know what their maiden names were or where he married. I have a large number of possibles, include the marriageof John Dickins and Ann Campbell in 1811 at Castle Church, Stafford, but I can find no way of proving the marriage s related, and the registers don't give more information (I contacted Staffordshire record office who did a look up for me).

6. Any records in the London Gazette
Not that I could see that give more than I have. I did search. here are some for Frederick Dickins, and several John Dickins, but apart from the information about his captaincy in the 90th foot, I don't find any more.

7. Any notices in The Times (try using a search engine for 'Archive Times Online')
Nope, I had the free subscription to the archive and failed to find anything significant in the archive. I found a few bits about Woodford Grange, and about farming.

John Dickins was a commissioner for the land registry. He also contributed to various agricultural journals. Nothing I have found so far links him to any other place.

Thank you for your suggestions :-).
Fee

[Geoffers]

Thanks for replying :-). I think the RN bit is either a mistake on the part of Sparrow or a deliberate lie by Robert Archibald Dickins.

Have you discounted the possibility of two lines of the family - each generation having a Robert Archibald?

Do you consider there is, or is not a conenction between your family in Staffordshire and the DICKIN(S) family in Church Preen, Shropshire?

the fact that he has that wrong makes me very suspicious about the information that takes Robert Archibald back to the Church Preen Dickins through John Dickins and John Dickins.

I think you are right to be suspicious; unless the book is adequately sourced you have no way of knowing what has been accurately researched.

I have the will of Robert Archibald and it simply mentions neices, ones I know about. I have bought about 10 wills but can only link one to the family, no will for John Dickins from Woodford Grange.

Did the family hold property in more than one place - the will might not be catalogued under Woodford Grange? The problem is knowing where to look, PCC wills are available at documentsonline, but I don't know what cataloguing is like for probate records around the area of your interest.

2. Oath rolls? Any sign of your chap in them and if so what do they record? Hmm not sure where I look for these?

Back to the jolly old National Archives - Oath Rolls

5. Any supporting evidence in parish registers?
Well I have copies of the births of the children but they don't give more than I have told you. John Dickins was apparently married twice, and appears to have been married twice to Anns, but I still don't know what their maiden names were or where he married.

Have you tried a search of the 1841 census for DICK(I/E)N(S) in and around this area of Staffordshire to find the spread of the name? Any clusters of the name in a particular parish or area which might hint at a set of records to hone in on?

In your shoes, I'd check Trysull registers for myself.

You mentioned Robet DICKENS taking over as tenant of Woodford Grange. Was the land transfer by copyhold or lease? Any record of either surviving?

Any Militia Ballot Lists survive for Trysull and the area?

[Caliandris]

Hi there,
Really I think there probably IS a link between the Woodford Grange family and the Preen family, if only because Fowler, the maiden name of Mary Dickins, carries forward to the Woodford Grange family in the for of Henry Fowler Dickins, one of George (b1824) Dickins's brothers. But that's not conclusive, of course, because if they had wanted to claim a connection with the Preen family then they could have put in the Fowler. However, the Preen Dickinses had lost all their land and estates entirely by the middle of the 18th century, and so I think it would be strange for the Woodford Grange Dickins to have wanted to connect themselves with the Preen Dickins unless it was pure snobbery... and even then, people lose touch with the history of their families so quickly, it would be strange for them to have carried forward the Fowler name if there were no connection at all.

On the other hand, I think my Dickins family changed their name to Dickens in order to increase the resemblance to Charles Dickens, through the latter half of the 19th century, meanwhile Charles Dickens himself adopted the swan crest and coat of arms of the Shropshire (Preen etc) Dickins, although he had no clue whether there was any relationship - and I have never found one. I have often cursed the other Dickenses, the Charles Dickins family, because his father was a John Dickens, also imprisoned for debt, and so millions of search results come back, all for Charles Dickens's father.

I have considered the possibility of there being two Robert Archibalds because in my husband's family, which is Scottish, the tradition of naming children in order for their grandparents means that there are a whole mess of Alexander Mairs... but all the information I have ever found over 20 years and trips to Trysull and Preen, has led me to believe this is one man. It all relates to the Robert Archibald who lived and died at Woodford Grange. When I searched the indexes at the Metropolitan Archives, there was only one Robert Archibald that I could see.

I do not know whether the farm was leasehold or copyhold. I'm not sure how I would find out?

Robert Archibald's only child Bramah predeceased him. Apart from the coincidence that Humphrey Dickins, who is an ancestor of the Preen Dickins family, held Woodford Grange, I think John Dickins was the first to hold it from the Wrottesleys. It was sold I believe after Robert Archibald died.

I have the census return for Woodford Grange in 1841, 1851.

In 1841 John Dickins, Ann Dickins, Robert Dickins, Sarah Dickins, Harriet Dickins and a group of servants were there. John Dickins wasn't born in the county but as you know that's all the information it includes.

By 1851, Robert, his wife Marianne and son Bramah and the servants are at Woodford Grange.

I'll take a look at your sugestions, thank you!
Fee

[Geoffers]

I do not know whether the farm was leasehold or copyhold. I'm not sure how I would find out?

Records may be at the County Record Office, whom you should ask if they are aware of any surviving manorial court records. For Copyhold, very basically, the fee simple for property was held by the lord of the manor - When someone died, the property was first surrendered to the lord who admitted the new tenant who swore fealty (and at periods in history paid a fine). Just to give you an idea of what you might find in a copyhold admission, the following is a fairly short one I found for a property in Aylsham, Norfolk a while ago........


At the General court Baron of Robert COPEMAN, Esquire, Lord of the said Manor held for the same the second day of April in the Year of our Lord one thousand eight Hundred and thirty five.

Before Robert William PARMETER, Gentleman, Steward there.

Whereas at the last General Court Baron held for this Manor the twentieth day of April one Thousand eight Hundred and thirty one it was presented by the Homage that Robert DODMAN then late a Copyhold Tenant of this Manor died after the then last General Court Baron held for this Manor and before that Court seized of and in certain Messuages Lands and Tenements holden of this Manor by Copy of Court Roll. And thereupon the first Proclamation was duly made for the Heirs of the said Robert DODMAN to come into Court and be admitted to the said Premises But no person came.

Now to this Court cometh personally Maria the wife of Edward JARVIS of Aylsham in the County of Norfolk, Shopkeeper; and produceth in Court an Extract of the last will and Testament of the said Robert DODMAN bearing the date the ninth Day of April one Thousand eight Hundred and thirty one, whereby it appears that he devised in these words,

"I give and bequeath" &c "to my daughter Maria JARVIS all the upper premises from the Deek at the back of the said Summer House on the North to the Deek next Elvin's Garding on the West leaving the Road for the use of the other cottages as is now is. It is my will the Ranters have the use of the Chapel with paying the yearly sum of Twenty Two Shillings yearly. If the Chapel is new roofed a rent not exceeding two Shillings yearly for Maria JARIVSes life after that their time expire the other premises are for her to do as she think proper independent of this or any future husband who she may marry, except injuring any part of the premises."

And thereupon the said Maria JARVIS humbly prayeth the favor of the Lord of this Manor to be admitted Tenant to the Messuages Lands and Tenements so devised to her aforesaid and holden of this manor by Copy of Court Roll (that is to say). To all that Messuage in Aylsham wherein the said Edward JARVIS and Virtue BOWERS now live with the stable and Outhouses adjoining and belonging thereto.

And also to all that Brewhouse in the occupation of Henry POLE. And Also to all that Building used as a Schoolroom in the occupation of (blank) RUST with the yards and Gardens to the said Messuage, Brewhouse and Schoolroom or any of them belonging situate lying and being between Land of Deborah SOAME on the North Part, Land and Buildings of Ann LOWN in Part and Land and Buildings of Ann SCOTTO in Part on the East part the King's Highway leading from Aylsham Market Place to North Walsham on the South Part and other buildings of the said Edward JARVIS in Part and Land and Buildings of Robert ELVIN and Sarah ELVIN in other part on the West Part.

Which Premises by an obselete description the said Robert DODMAN had and took up to him and his Heirs on the Surrender of Jonathan Hart ULPH and Elizabeth his wife at a General Court Baron held for this Manor the twelfth Day of May one Thousand seven Hundred and Eighty Eight (As by the Rolls thereof may appear). And the said Maria JARVIS is admitted Tenant to the said Premises accordingly.

To whom the Lord of this Manor by the hands of his said Steward doth deliver Seizin thereof by the rod. To hold to her the said Maria JARVIS according to the form and effect of the said will of the said Robert DODMAN, of the Lord of this Manor at his Will according to the Custom of this Manor by the Rents and Services therefore due and of the Right accustomed Saving every one's right and she prays to the Lord for a Fine and so forth And her fealty is respited.

Examined R W PARMETER Steward

[Geoffers]

Further to the above

The family may have held a lease for the property, or possibly freehold - but again the place to try in the first instance is the County Record Office. How easy it is to locate depends on the quality of cataloguing.

The form of transfer (freehold, leashold, copyhold) is normally mentioned in a will and I would be very suprised if a fairly affluent family, one of whom was an army/militia officer, who owned a farm, did not leave wills, or if there was no administration bond.

[Caliandris]

Following your suggestions, I searched for Woodford Grange in the National Archives, and came up with a few documents in the Wolverhampton Archives.

There is a valuation and sales particulars from 1894 on the death of Lt Col R.A. Dickins. I am assuming that must mean that the lease for the property was sold after his death?

Unfortunately, with the luck which has always followed me while researching this, the Wolverhampton archives are in transit at the moment between their old home and their new, and won't reopen until March 2009!
bws
Fee

[Caliandris]

I have now located a death in theGentleman's Magazine for 1851 which is for my John Dickins. He died aged 78 on 24 March 1851 at Forton in Staffordshire. Of did he? I can't find a death in the indexes which fits for that location and date.

I suddenly realised that I had discovered something significant: I found a birth for a Francis Campbell Dickins some time ago, noted it, and found census returns for Francis Dickins and his family in Chelsea. The children were wards in chancery.

Doing a search for Francis Campbell Dickins in the National Archives threw up a case between William Essex and a number of defendants... including both William Archibald Campbell and Francise Campbell Dickins.

I have a copy of the will of Robert Archibald Dickins, who as you remember was a son of John Dickins, born 1813. In it he left property to Sarah Elizabeth Dickins and Caroline Fanny Dickins - the daughters of Francis Campbell Dickins!

It is possible that William Archibald Campbell is the father of Anne Campbell, who married John dickins in 1811, at Castle Church, and that she is the mother of Francis, Robert, George, Charles etc.

Now all I have to do is to go to the National Archives... is it likely that the chancery bill will tell me more than I already know? How readable would that be for the date (early 19th century)?

There is another case, for William Archibald Campbell against Eneas Mackintosh over the will of his late wife MAria. I am not even going there until I have had a chance to look at the chancery document. In the London Gazette I also found proceedings between Charles Inglis and William Archiald Campbell at around the same date, but again, I shall delay doing anything on that until I have some firm information about the other document.

This board has been a real inspiration to picking up the threads again.
bws
Fee