Seeking Roots of Luxembourg Jews

[norfolkkahns]

My GGF Victor Kahnn signed British legal documents in the 1860s declaring his birthplace as "Luxemberg, Germany." During my researches, I've come across others with similar origins, but nobody has been able to explain exactly what the term signifies.

Does it suggest birth in that part of Luxembourg ceded to Prussia in the middle 1800s - thus implying that in reality the birthplace was Germany?In which case, can anyone actually define the borders of the area affected?

Is "Luxemberg, Germany" a quasi-legal expression suggesting loyalty to the state of Luxembourg although in fact under the authority of Germany?

Bearing in mind the precise spelling, did, or does, Germany have a town named Luxemberg?

I'm trying to reach back beyond my GGF Victor, but I've hit a metaphorical brick wall because so far I can't precisely pinpoint his country of birth. The few cases I've encountered have all related to jewish emigrants (mainly heading to USA) so I post this message here rather than on the "Brickwall" forum.

If anyone can shed light on the problem I'd be delighted to hear.

Thanks

[Jan1954]

Hi there,

According to this free online encyclopaedia, the Congress of Vienna (1814–15) officially made Luxembourg a grand duchy, in personal union through the sovereign with the Netherlands. At the same time, Luxembourg became a member of the German Confederation, and the fortress in the capital was garrisoned by Prussian troops.

Click the link and scroll down to read the full entry.

It may be a starting point for you.

[norfolkkahns]

Hello Jan1954 - thanks for the link. I think that probably answers my query. As Luxembourg was part of the official German Confederation, it could be reasonable to assume that a place would be given the legal address of Luxembourg, Germany. Which, annoyingly, means he could have been born anywhere in Luxembourg, wheras I thought I'd narrowed it down to the Lux/German borders. One step forward; two steps back! Ho hum. Many thanks for your help though.

[John Rose]

Hello,

I am an Englishman living in Luxembourg. I have a friend who is well aquainted with genealogy here and I have asked him if he can come up with anything on your ancestor in Luxembourg.

One thing I have noticed from the English 1881 census is that the age of Victor's wife is shown as 40 yrs. and the eldest daughter is shown as 27. This would make Matilda 13 years old if she was the mother. Either the ages registered in the census were incorrect or it is possible that Matilda was a second wife and not the mother of the older children.

It may take a week or two to come up with probable birth places in Luxembourg and any other family details but I will certainly let you know what we have been able to find

John Rose

[norfolkkahns]

Hello - I would very much appreciate your help. I seem to have hit a brickwall as far as seeking beyond Victor.

I regret my family had a tendency to misrepresent ages, either inadvertently through sloppy transcription, or deliberately out of misplaced pride. By a process of divining declared ages from census returns, certificates and registration, I calculate that Victor was born between 1823 and 1827, and Matilda around 1833. This of course is more realistic than those ages suggested in the 1881 census.

The spelling of his surname is in doubt. He seems to have signed himself with two nns when in the UK, but I have the feeling this could have an affectation. His surname was more likely to have been Kahn.

Thank you very much for your very kind offer. I hope the process doesn't prove too onerous. Having said that, I cross my fingers in the hope you can find a birthplace.

Many thanks once again

Alan Kahn

[John Rose]

Hello again Alan,

I,m sorry to say that despite all efforts neither I or my genealogical friend have been able to trace your Victor. We find that back to 1700 there was agroup of Kahn families living on the Eastern border of what is now Luxembourg in the vicinity of Echternach. We also found Kahns in the Alsace region of France not far south of Luxembourg on the border of Germany. The town there that is now just over the border in Germany is Riedseltz and it seems that a Victor Kahn was born there in the late 1800s and is said to have moved to Liverpool. How certain are you that your Victor was born in the early 1800s ?

There are still several Kahn families living in Luxemborg, mostly near the centre of the country at or near Mersch. The Luxembourg telephone directory will give you their numbers if you would like to try calling them. The directory is at www.editus.lu and you just need to enter Kahn in the search box and it will come up with a list of Kahn numbers and addresses.

Sorry I have not been able to be more positive.

Good luck in your research,

John Rose

[norfolkkahns]

Hello John - many thanks indeed for your kind help. The information you've provided certainly provides some leads.

Victor describes himself as being born in "Luxemberg, Germany." I don't know exactly what that term signifies but it does seem to have some sort of legal or emotional significance because other emigrants have declared the same as their birthplaces.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the notion that Victor was actually born in Germany but in one of the towns and villages ceded to Prussia under the congress of Vienna in 1814/15. Victor was born some time between 1823 and 1827, according to which age he chose to declare on various documents.

He actually moved from his birthplace to Paris where he married a local girl in about 1852 or so. His first two children were born in France and then they moved on to Liverpool in about 1856. I know many European Jews travelled to Liverpool in order to board a ship for USA, so possibly the Victor you found in the late 1800s is one of those.

Anyway, many thanks again for you help.

best wishes/ Alan

[pottoka]

I see that you say that Victor got married in Paris and that his first two children were born in France. That could possibly be a lead to follow up, although the date is likely to be a problem.

I stress the possibly because, unfortunately, there was a fire in the Archives of the Seine and the Paris Law Courts in May 1871 when some eight million records were lost, being "all the Parish Registers of baptisms, marriages and burials, recorded before 1792, and all the Registry Office records drawn up before 1859 in the former 12 Parisian arrondissements and in the suburb parishes fully annexed in 1860." Some of these documents have been re-created, from papers which weren't entirely burned or from copies which people took in.

French BMD documents are much more detailed than English ones, but I recently acquired a re-created certificate from Paris, and it was quite minimal compared to the usual ones, with very little detail. I had been thinking that a normal marriage certificate for Victor would possibly give his place of birth with more detail than "Luxemberg, Germany".

Were the children born in Paris? If they were born elsewhere, their birth certificates might show Victor's place of birth, but you would need to know exactly where they were born in order to apply to the Town Hall where the birth was registered.

Would you like to give me all the details you have of the marriage and births, with names and dates, and I'll see what I can do for you? But please don't hope too much as it really will be a long shot because of that ****** fire.

[norfolkkahns]

hello - thank you for your offer. I promise not to get my hopes too high, but if something can be discovered it would help enormously.

Birth certificates here are of little help with Victor's generation. They never give the parents' place of birth. All references we have, generally census reports, quote the enigmatic "Luxemberg, Germany" which annoyingly nobody can explain.

The information we have is that Victor Kahn (although he could have signed himself with a double n, hence Kahnn) was born between 1823 and 1827, depending which document we believe. My ancestors were never too precise about ages. They were all Jews by the way.

He married Mathilde (also known as Madeleine) Cahen. She was born in Paris around 1833 (date averaged from census and other information). Because of the dates of children, I guess they married about 1851. At one stage she decribed herself as a dressmaker.

Two children were born in Paris. Pauline was born about 1854 in Paris and died (apparently unmarried) in Liverpool 1886. The second was Artur ( or Artis or Arthur) in 1854. At some stage he became a nationalised Briton. He died in London in 1925.

Subsequent children were born in Liverpool from 1856, so evidently the family moved there between 1854 and 1856. The rest of the family are fairly well documented, from the 1856 birth certificate and the 1861 census onwards. The black holes are in Paris and wherever Victor started out. The scientists say light doesn't escape from black holes - I want to prove them wrong.

I'm fairly certain that Victor was a shipping clerk in Liverpool and went o become a passenger agent for Cunard, mainly dealing with Jewish emigrants to the USA. Whether he became involved with this in Paris, I don't know.

It's not a lot to go on, but I'd be very grateful for any assistance. My aim is to discover Victor's siblings and parentage, so to move the tree back one generation at least.

Thank you once again for your offer.

Best regards

[norfolkkahns]

sorry - correction to error in my above posting. I surmise that Pauline was born in 1852, not 1854 as stated. I must learn to proof read my postings BEFORE i submit them.