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  1. #1
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    Default Normans in Scotland

    I've traced my Gourlay line back to 7th great grandfather, John Gourlay b c 1655 at Ceres, Fife. According to postings on various sites and other references, all of the Gourlays in Scotland originate from the Norman, Ingleramus de Gourlay [and spelling variants] who was granted land in the Ceres area at Kincraig and Craigrothie in 1175 by King William the Lion of Scotland, presumably for services and favours rendered.
    Try as I might I've been unable to join the dots between Ingelramus and John. Anybody out there got some inside knowledge on where I should look next?
    John Gourlay, Melbourne, Australia

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Gourlay View Post
    I've traced my Gourlay line back to 7th great grandfather, John Gourlay b c 1655 at Ceres, Fife. According to postings on various sites and other references, all of the Gourlays in Scotland originate from the Norman, Ingleramus de Gourlay [and spelling variants] who was granted land in the Ceres area at Kincraig and Craigrothie in 1175 by King William the Lion of Scotland, presumably for services and favours rendered.
    Try as I might I've been unable to join the dots between Ingelramus and John. Anybody out there got some inside knowledge on where I should look next?
    John Gourlay, Melbourne, Australia
    Because neglect, war, damp and poor materials (medieval ink was remarkably acid), there are very few surviving records from the early 17th century and beyond so I'd be surprised if you could link the two individuals. What you could do, since records for the rich tend to survive better, is try and track IdG down and see where that leads. Try the testament archive - free to search and read the index on Scotlands people, and the NAS catalogue (URLs for both in the stickies at the top to the General Scottish forum).
    The most obvious starting place, however, is Black's "Surnames of Scotland" - it's the authority on surname origins and spelling variations.

    Lesley

  3. #3
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    Default

    Dear Lesley
    Thanks for that. I haven't been to Testament or NAS yet, but I did find time to check the availability of Surnames of Scotland. I need a trip to the State Library in the city [Melbourne] for a look up. No closer libraries have it. I also did another Google, this time putting Craigrothie and Kincraig along with IdG into the spec. Now have much on him than previous.
    John Gourlay

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Gourlay View Post
    Dear Lesley
    Thanks for that. I haven't been to Testament or NAS yet, but I did find time to check the availability of Surnames of Scotland. I need a trip to the State Library in the city [Melbourne] for a look up. No closer libraries have it. I also did another Google, this time putting Craigrothie and Kincraig along with IdG into the spec. Now have much on him than previous.
    John Gourlay

    Amazon UK has it.
    Howeven, since you've caught me at home (where my library is), I've had a look. He says that the name probably comes from an English place name. There is a place called Gourlaw near Lasswade, Midlothian, but it's not clear if it was named for the family, or the family for it. The first entry in Scotland is Ingelramus de Gourlay who had land in Clydesdale and Lothian around 1174 (presumably the guy you mention), his son Hugh de Gurley had lands in Fife and Lothian. There was an Ingeramus Gurle in 1244, and Hugh and William Gurle were in Roxburgh 1254.
    Spelling of old names is notoriously variable and this family is no different. While "Gourlay" does sound french, many of the other variants don't - Gurleghe, for example. Since Black doesn't mention a Norman origin, he obviously didn't find any evidence for one. I find the timing suggestive, however - David I started inviting his Norman friends in after 1124.

    The other danger with Scottish surnames is that as surnames became commone, people sometimes took the name of their landlord or the place they came from.

    It looks like there's good informatin about the two ends of the timeline, but filling in the bits between are not going to be easy - at the moment I can't think of anywhere other than NAS to look.
    Lesley

  5. #5
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    Default Gourlay.

    Hi John.
    I wouldnt worry to much about joining the dots. This may prove impossible.

    BUT!!..don't threat. ALL Gourlays who have links to Scotland...which is pretty much ALL Gourlay no matter where they are. Are decended from Ingelramus de Gourlay.

    I assume your Gourlay family came from the UK?....to Australia?.
    If so ..then that is the case.

    My partner Linda is also a Gourlay...and we visited the grave of Ingelramus just a few weeks ago.

    He is buried in Ceres in Fife Scotland. We live not to far from there.

    On the tomb there is a script it reads.

    " Ingelramus de Gourlay

    Came from England with Prince William

    about the year 1174. And was the Progenitor

    of all the Gourlays in Scotland."


    So.....if your line comes from Scotland..which pretty much ALL Gourlays do....then you are related to Ingelramus..even if you cant join the dots.

    Plus you are also related to my partner Linda. And even though we are not married..you are also related to me via marriages between families in my tree and Lindas.

    The Gourlays married into the Culross family. The Culross family have links to the de Quincey family..and the De Quinceys have links to the Leuchars family ..which is in my tree.

    All a little complex...but its out there...lol.

    Regards
    Paul

    If you would like photos of the tombs we can exchange emails.

  6. #6
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    Dear Paul [and Linda]
    Good to hear your story and would like to hear the rest. I'm at jgourlay at ozemail.com.au My father migrated from Dundee to Mebourne in 1922. It was his grandfather that swam the Tay from Fife to Angus as many did in the early 19th century for work in the new industrialised era. I've got his line back to my 7th great grandfather, John Gourlay, bc 1655 at Ceres. I've found no Culrosses or De Quinceys yet, so would love to swap information with you.
    cheers, John Gourlay
    Last edited by Astoria; 12-04-2009 at 10:29 AM. Reason: email disguised

  7. #7
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    Default Photos.

    I think I have managed to solve the problem of photos John.

    These are the photos I took of Ingelramus de Gourlay's tomb in Ceres, Fife, Scotland.
    He is the progenitor of ALL Gourlays in Scotland.

    This means all those who imigrated to the US & Australia etc..are also related.











    Enjoy!.

    Regards
    Paul
    Last edited by CRIPES; 27-04-2009 at 3:13 PM. Reason: update

  8. #8
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    Default Photos

    Dear Paul
    Thank you very much for this. I've managed to successfully download them into a file. Now comes the job of reading them. You don't happen to have the transcriptions, do you.
    regards
    John Gourlay

  9. #9
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    Default Scripts.

    Hi John,

    Yes I do have the transcripts somewhere..i did make a note of them while I was there...but for the life of me cant rememebr where I put it..lol.

    The end scripts states

    "Ingelramus de Gourlay
    Came from England with Prince William
    about the year 1174. And is the Progenitor
    of all Gourlays in Scotland"

    I also have what is written on the top...but as this time cant find it.

    I am looking right now ..and will post once I find it ...if!

    Regards
    Paul

  10. #10
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    Default

    Sorry should read

    "Ingelramus de Gourlay
    Came from England with Prince William
    about the year 1174. And was the Progenitor
    of all Gourlays in Scotland"



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