Zulu Wars late 1870s and India in early 1880s

[freddie999]

My GGF was on board the Serapis in 1881 with the 2nd batt/4th Foot , and with the 172 other men. The census was taken around 2nd April 1881, when the Serapis was passing through the Suez canal I dont know whether this is his first posting, as I do not know how to find out when he signed up. I went through the papers at the National Archives but couldn't find his, the museum didn't have any record of him. . you all seem to find this information, where do I look? please email me on huntlikewolf862 (at) aol.com Thanks

Craig

[Ann_Cestor]

Hi Sloop

I have collated information from various sources, which incidentally all fitted together like a glove and didn't contradict each other at all, which is always a good sign that it's accurate. It's just that they all have their own way of getting the info across and you have to pick out the facts and put it all into the same language and create a time line. My investigative profession helped me through it.

My information was sourced as follows:

From the 'Regiments' site, before it was off line (info saved from site if you want it)

From the 1881 census sheet on 'Serapis'

From a fellow 2nd/4th soldier's military movements (as confirmation)

From the https://www.kingsownmuseum.plus.com/moves03.htm Website (although this info is vague and confusing to me, mainly because it didn't split the company or any detachment movements with no specific dates etc, therefore virtually useless for my purposes)

The Anglo-Zulu War Historical Society Members' Section https://www.ecomallbiz.com/easy67/2nd...oyal1regiment/

https://www.militaryarchiveresearch.com/

https://www.merchantnavyofficers.com/unioncastle.html This site gives an amazingly detailed account of the privately owned shipping lines which were often used transport troops for the Zulu wars, includin the Teuton and various 'Castles'

Kevin Asplin was hepful too.

Other sites too were useful for information about the Serapis use and movements (Just Google Serapis, but make sure you get the right one, there were abou 5 at different times.)

Also, Googled Chelmsford and Chard for information on their movements to and from Zululand, they often mention the 2nd/4th movements if they travelled together or in memoires/diaries/letters.

Various other reading from historical military sites.

Yes it took ages. My forte is investigating and collating. Where I fall down is not knowing about the military at all, so I can find something out and not actually know what it really means, so that's where I need the help of military experts to 'translate' what I find out for me. It then sheds light on the situation for me.

The main puzzle I have now is why my GGF stayed in London for the rest of his life after leaving the army. What is the connection between the 2nd/4th Foot (King's Own) and London? Why did my GGM go down to London? Obviously to be near him, but why was he near/in London if his depot was in Lancaster? Was there another depot in/near London where he must have been for a considerble time to warrant her moving down there from Yorkshire in those days?

I think he must have joined in 1876 because of his number (995) but his service wouldn't start to reckon until 1878 when he was 18. This explains his being a lance Sgt in 1880 time-wise. Then presumably 7 years in the colours to 1885, (when his first daughter was conceived in Yorkshire, obviously on leave between services). Then 5 years service somewhere else, obviously near London. His second daughter was conceived about Feb 1890 in London. He left the army I think in late 1890 and lived in London after that. What service would he have transferred to in 1885. If I knew this I might be able to find his military record.

Does anyone out there have any suggestions please?

Kind regards

Ann

[neil1821]

"The main puzzle I have now is why my GGF stayed in London for the rest of his life after leaving the army. What is the connection between the 2nd/4th Foot (King's Own) and London? Why did my GGM go down to London? Obviously to be near him, but why was he near/in London if his depot was in Lancaster? Was there another depot in/near London where he must have been for a considerble time to warrant her moving down there from Yorkshire in those days?"

There was no connection between the 2/4th Regt and London. None at all.
I think you maybe need to look elsewhere for the reason he went to London, something other than an army connection.

"Then presumably 7 years in the colours to 1885, (when his first daughter was conceived in Yorkshire, obviously on leave between services). Then 5 years service somewhere else, obviously near London. His second daughter was conceived about Feb 1890 in London. He left the army I think in late 1890 and lived in London after that. What service would he have transferred to in 1885. If I knew this I might be able to find his military record."

Sorry, I don't think I follow the argument here. Why do you think he transferred regiments/units specifically in 1885? From some comment on his daughter's birth certificate?
You should have all you need to find his military record at Kew.

[neil1821]

Craig,
If you give me name, rank and whatever else you have I'll look him up on the medal roll as with the others.

[freddie999]

Hi, Neil, Thanks for your kind offer to help me trace my GGF. All this is new to new, hence I don't know where to start. It's exciting to know he could have served in India or South Africa, but putting the pieces together seem difficult. I cannot trace his wife through the census, let alone his movement through the British Empire.

All the information is his name and rank, I dont have his regiment number:

he was Private John Jenkinson, of the 2/4th Foot

In the 1881 Census he can be found aboard the famous Serapis.

Is it possible to find out when he joinedthe regiment and left? I went through a box of soldiers papers at the Natioal Archive, but found nothing.

It is amazing there's is such large community here, with a common interest; and so many people with ancestors who would have sat and dined, and stood shoulder to shoulder in battle with my GGF.

Anyway

Thanks for your offer of help

Best wishes

Craig Jenkinson

[SloopJB]

Does anyone have any information about Troop ships returning from South Africa ( Simonstown ) to London in 1880.

Or indeed how and where I could search for such records.

Thanks SloopJB.

[Ann_Cestor]

Hi Neil

Thanks for the medal info by the way, it confirms what his regiment told me, but the extra bit about him being at the regimental depot at the time the medal roll was confirmed was great news. Do you mean the depot in Lancaster or a depot in Bombay? That would explain a lot please.

My logic for the suggestion of his being 7 years in the colours and 5 years somewhere else (near London?), came from Kevin Asplin a while ago, when we were trying to work out his length of service to see if he was pensioned out or not to look for his record. We were trying to fit his army and leave movements into the timings and locations of the conception of his two daughters, when he would have had to be physically present.

From his age 18 I worked out that he'd been in the army 12 years before leaving it, and asked Kevin if this represented any kind of standard service stretch. He told me that they could serve 7 years in the 'colours' and 5 years in the reserves, or a straight 12 year stretch in the colours. Now because he had two daughters, whose conceptions were exactly at the end of 7 years and 12 years, this fitted very well with him being on leave after a 7 year stretch abroad, Then my GGM went to London with no family connection there at all, and she had another daughter to him after a further 5 years. I was clutching at straws to explain why my GGM went to London, thinking that he possibly was in the reserves near London after those 7 years, and maybe that is why she moved down there to be near him. They obviously had very little time together in the last 5 years service as she would have had more children.

So it seems obvious he was in the army for 12 years whether split into 7 and 5, or a straight 12 years with leave. If he had not served near London in the last 5 years, she could have stayed in Yorkshire with the family. And because I too could see no connection between the 2nd/4th and London, I thought it had to be him serving in the reserves in/near London in a different regiment perhaps with a different number. Hence why I can't find his records at Kew with the 2nd/4th regt number I had. Although I'm also told they didn't keep them if they were not pensioned out after 21 years, but he could have been pensioned out through injury, I can't rule it out.

Was there a section of the army reserves serving near London for any reason from 1885 to 1890?

[Ann_Cestor]

Hi Neil

I forgot to mention also, that of the few things we knew about my GGF, my mother told me he travelled from Simonstown, S Africa to London. Now on research I've done in the last few days, it seems that some of the privately owned mail steamers used to transport troops in larger or smaller parties sometimes left from Simonstown, depending on where they normally birthed, or on the local weather conditions, as I think the Simonstown jetty was more sheltered.

So his London connection is there too. This is all a mystery.

[freddie999]

I have contacted a guy called Garen, who does research about ship movement, he seems to have interesting details about ship movements, heres details I got from him:

Hello Craig

The Serapis left Portsmouth for Bombay on 17 March 1881. It took a draft of 173 men of the 4th Foot who were to join their headquarters at Poona (they'd been in India since 1880). The 1881 census was taken on the night of the 3 April 1881, and on the 2 April the Serapis had just passed through the Suez, arriving at its destination on 14th April.

Yes - you're quite right, the 2/4th Foot were the King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment by the 1881 change.

Hope that is useful.

Garen Ewing
The Second Anglo-Afghan War resource at:
https://www.angloafghanwar.info

Hello Craig,

The Serapis didn't get back to Portsmouth until 21st May 1881, after leaving Bombay on 24 April and having a journey that included two broken propellors. On the night of the census, when your man was on board, the Serapis was on its previous voyage to Bombay, having just passed through the Suez Canal.

Apart from Poona being the location of the 2/4th HQ, I can't say what else they were doing there..."normal everyday duty" I guess!

Garen Ewing
The Second Anglo-Afghan War resource at:
https://www.angloafghanwar.info

[freddie999]

AAAARRRGG!!! I amgoing so mad, this is such a big site, I find good posting, and come back to find it, and cannot find it, AND I cannot find where I have posted a message earlier!! Yes I am stupid, I dont know whether you will have seen my posting of yesterday evening, but I cannot find it!!! it includes information about the Serapis

The Serapis left Portsmouth for Bombay on 17 March 1881. It took a draft of 173 men of the 4th Foot who were to join their headquarters at Poona (they'd been in India since 1880). The 1881 census was taken on the night of the 3 April 1881, and on the 2 April the Serapis had just passed through the Suez, arriving at its destination on 14th April.


Hope that is useful.

This is the guy who helped me, he plots troops ships around the world (don't we all do strange things?)

Garen Ewing
The Second Anglo-Afghan War resource at:
https://www.angloafghanwar.info


I expect I will lose this link. Neil, if you read this you offered to look up my GGF if I gave you further details,which I did, I cannot find the chain where all that was happening. If you did reply to me,can you please email the information to huntlikewolf862 (at) aol.com Thanks, Craig