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  1. #11
    pennydog
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    Hi Karen,

    Both of the marriages (Charles William and John Henry are on Ancestry's London Marriages 1754-1921). They both took place at All Souls Church in Marylebone.

    West Ham and Lambeth are some way apart, Lambeth is much closer to Marylebone. My thinking that as the sons were married there the family could have moved further into London from Essex.

    You could always order the death cert. from the GRO and not give the reference number and specify that the occupation must be shoe maker (if you do not know how to - just ask). If it is not the correct one the GRO will refund the cost - this does take about three weeks, not the usual week - but worth the wait as it avoids buying a cert which is not yours.

  2. #12
    suffolk sue
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    From the parish registers of All Saints, West Ham

    John Henry Challen
    Charles William Challen
    born February 8th and baptised February 20th, 1816
    sons of John and Mary Ann
    father a shoemaker.

  3. #13
    suffolk sue
    Guest

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    John Challen
    Mary Ann Jones
    both single and of the parish
    by banns
    10th July. 1810
    witnesses
    Jas L Gawter
    Joh Seager
    St. Mary Lambeth


    This makes me think this is the right couple as when looking at the West Ham baps I came across another child with Jones as a middle name.

  4. #14
    suffolk sue
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    There is a Mary Challen of about the right age in West Ham with a Sarah Challen aged 85yrs, maybe mother in law in 1841.

    HO107/323/9/1
    Folio 8, Page 9

    All Saints West Ham

    John Challen buried July 21st 1823, aged 43yrs.
    Mary Challen buried 6th September, 1841, aged 55yrs.

  5. #15
    Loves to help with queries
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    151

    Default

    thank you suffolk Sue, definately is the family

  6. #16
    Loves to help with queries
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    151

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    was it normal when any children married that the mother is never mentioned. It seems that only the father's name and occupation is noted, even after their death. tia
    I have found other children which belong to John Henry Challen & Mary Ann Jones so thanks to everyone here have pieced together quite a lot
    Last edited by mjkisxo; 27-08-2020 at 6:26 AM. Reason: adding more

  7. #17
    Loves to help with queries
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    151

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    sorry Alan I have since received their marriage certificate and William was not her father thanks

  8. #18

    Default

    Who gets mentioned depends on the time and place. For example, in Scotland, the mother (including maiden name) is mentioned on civil certificates. In church records, it often depended on the whim of the Minister/parish clerk. If the parents were unmarried, the father was only named if he was present at the registration.

  9. #19

    Default

    Post 14 identified a Mary Challen and Sarah Challen living together on the '41 Census - "possible mother in law". Sarah's occupation "Sextoness" and "Not born in County"

    Chelmsford Chronicle, 10 Jan 1845
    "At a vestry held at All Saints, West Ham, on the 2nd inst., the office of Sexton vacant by the death of Mrs Sarah Challen was contested ..."
    Same newspaper, 3 Jan 1845
    "Deaths - 27 ult., at West Ham, Mrs Sarah Challen, age 88 (born c. 1857)"

    John and Mary Ann named the boys John HENRY Challen, Charles WILLIAM Challen and RICHARD Jones Challen (haven't checked yet for other baptisms)

    FMP has the death of Henry Challen, West Ham, All Saints, 29 Mar 1821, age 71 (born c. 1750)

    Moving out of Essex (Sarah not born in County) -

    FMP baptism - John Challen, 25 Feb 1781, place Sutton, Surrey, parents Henry and Sarah Challen
    FMP marriage - Henry Challen and Sarah Miles, 2 May 1776, both of the Parish of Cheam, Surrey

    FMP baptism - Henry Challin (with an "i"), 9 May 1750, place Epsom, parents Richard and Elizabeth
    FMP baptism - Sarah Miles, 3 Apr 1755, place Cheam, St Dunstan, daughter of William and Elizabeth

    All very, very tenuous. You can throw a blanket over Cheam, Sutton and Epsom but how to make the leap to West Ham??
    "dyfal donc a dyr y garreg"

  10. #20

    Default

    https://essexandsuffolksurnames.co.u...-1810-1812.pdf

    Sarah Challen mentioned 4 times in Notes column. Also a C Challen and H Challen (Henry?).
    "dyfal donc a dyr y garreg"

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