Two William Simmonds - help wanted

[kesimmonds]

Trying to find information on my Ggrandfather William Simmonds (I'll call him junior), and my GGgrandfather William Simmonds (I'll call him senior).
Very little information on either of them, so all offers of help will be greatly appreciated.
What I do know...

William junior married Annie Rumble or Rumbal, depending on whether I look on their son's (John James) birth certificate, or their marriage certificate, in October 1879. She is the daughter of John Rumbal (sp?), a dock labourer, born circa 1860, no further info. They are *both* shown as living at 52 Kingslake St in Newington, and on son John's birth in 1884, are still living in Kingslake St, but at no. 97.
Junior is an undertaker at his marriage, but at John's birth is Horse Keeper, and at John's wedding is a Carman (busdriver). Extrapolating his date of birth from the marriage certificate would have him born circa 1859, presumably in London (Newington??). Any info welcomed.

William senior is almost totally a blank page. On junior's marriage certificate, he is described as a 'Bookmaker'. I don't know if this is a betting bookmaker, or a reading bookmaker. Any help appreciated.

Thanks in advance
Keith

[Copper]

This family might be yours in 1891

RG12/362 Fol 88A
5 Saviours Street, Newington

William Simmonds, head, 28, carman, Camberwell, London
Annie Simmonds, wife, 27, Walworth, London
William Simmonds, son, 10?, scholar, Walworth, London
John Simmonds, son, 6, scholar, Walworth, London
James Simmonds, son, 5? months, Walworth, London
Elizabeth Simmonds, dau, 12, scholar, Walworth, London
Eliza Simmonds, dau, 4, scholar, Walworth, London

[kesimmonds]

Hmmm, very interesting, and a little strange.
Getting William and Annies birth dates from those given in the 1891 census would have them born approximately 1863 and 1864, not the approximately 1859 and 1860 calculated from the marriage certificate. But the location and William junior's occupation are correct, whilst son John age 6 puts him squarely into 1884 as given on the birth certificate.
I guess it must be them, wonder why they changed their ages, and, more importantly, which are the correct ones.
That's great Copper, thank you very much.

[Peter Goodey]

"a Carman (busdriver)"

Out of interest, were they the actual words used on the certificate?

Secondly, I wonder if this was the family in 1871 - RG 10/732 f 132 p 21

William senior's occupation, "messenger" = bookie's runner, perhaps.

[kesimmonds]

<"a Carman (busdriver)"
Out of interest, were they the actual words used on the certificate?>
No, to be honest it just read 'Carman'. But his son John was also a Carman, and later described as Bus Driver. I've assumed the words to be interchangeable. I'd like to know if they're something different.

<I wonder if this was the family in 1871 - RG 10/732 f 132 p 21>
I don't have access to this record, could you post the details please, I'm especially interested in William senior.

<William senior's occupation, "messenger" = bookie's runner, perhaps.>
Ah, good, that ties in with Bookmaker thank you


Many thanks
Keith

[Peter Goodey]

No, to be honest it just read 'Carman'. But his son John was also a Carman, and later described as Bus Driver. I've assumed the words to be interchangeable. I'd like to know if they're something different.

A carman was a Victorian White Van Man - the urban equivalent of a carter.

I don't have access to this record, could you post the details please, I'm especially interested in William senior.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...ddmenu_search4

I'm afraid few hobbies are free.

Here's an extract -


William Simmonds 24 Nova Scotia Halifax Messenger

Catherine Simmonds 24 Surrey Newington

William Simmonds 9 Surrey Camberwell

Eleanor Simmonds 9 Surrey Camberwell

Thomas Simmonds 5 Surrey Camberwell

George Simmonds 3 Surrey Camberwell

Joseph Simmonds 1 Surrey Camberwell



Parent's ages are doubtful (4 might be 9, William's 2 might be a 3)

[Peter Goodey]

<William senior's occupation, "messenger" = bookie's runner, perhaps. Ah, good, that ties in with Bookmaker thank you

Note the "perhaps" - it was partly a joke but quite believable in my opinion. A Bookie's runner was an illegal occupation. On the other hand, he might simple have been a messenger!!

[kesimmonds]

A carman was a Victorian White Van Man - the urban equivalent of a carter.

Good, thank you for clearing that up.

Here's an extract -
< snip >
Parent's ages are doubtful (4 might be 9, William's 2 might be a 3)

Thanks very much, been to the page now. Comparing the '4' in the house number with William's age, it looks like 34 to me, whereas Catherine's looks like 29, the 9 being similar to the 9's in William jnr. and Eleanor's 9. I'll presume they're twins for the time being, though with my record on presuming I'll probably be wrong

Note the "perhaps" - it was partly a joke but quite believable in my opinion.

Yes, I agree. I wasn't too happy with the 'reading' type of bookmaker, I thought that would be bookbinder or something similar.

Thank you very much for your help, much appreciated.

Keith

[Copper]

Free BMD https://freebmd.rootsweb.com/

has this birth registration

1861 Sep William Simmonds Camberwell 1d 453

They also have this birth registration

1863 Sep Elizabeth Eleanor Simmonds Camberwell 1d 481

There are a number of Simmonds birth registrations in Camberwell.

[kesimmonds]

Slowly going gaga!
So now I have 3 possible dates for William jun. birth
Marriage cert in 1879 has him age 20, = b. c1859
Census in 1891 has him age 28, = b. c1863
And now a *possible* b.1861.
*IF* Elizabeth Eleanor was known just as Eleanor, and *IF* she and William jun. were twins as possibly shown on the 1871 census, then that would make 2 votes for the 1863 d.o.b.. It's all very "iffy" isn't it? I would have expected William to be shown alongside Eleanor on the birth registration, so maybe the two age 9's shown are incorrect?
Regards
Keith