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Thread: Why?

  1. #31
    Stephen M. Kohler
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    Unhappy Tory

    Here are some interesting ideas to pursue in conversation about the American Tory. First off, the term Tory is used different ways by the English speaker over different centuries. It never quite means the same thing from one group of people to the next and from time to time. In the way it was used by people in the colonies during the American War of Independence it NEVER EVER referred to a loyal British subject. At first it was used to designate individuals that subscribed to conscientious objection. Later its’ reference was purely aimed at persons who did not offer and/or refused any assistance to combatant elements. Later still its’ meaning was extended to include anyone who did not offer and/or refused any assistance to non-combatant and refugee elements displaced by war. In New Jersey this caused an enormous amount of animosity between neighboring families and neighboring towns. The result of this animosity led to tar and feather, and lynch mobs. Property was confiscated and homes were burned. Families were driven out the towns, out of the counties, and out of the country. Interestingly enough Loyalist militiamen and Colonial soldiers alike sometimes returned home to discover the house in ashes and the family dead or in exile.

    /R

    Stephen
    Washington, DC

  2. #32
    A fountain of knowledge
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    Wink Tories & Dating

    Hi Stephen,

    Think you skipped a couple of pages; there were other replies to "Why." Or perhaps your computer has managed to sort them by the US version of the dates? The first post was on 17-11-04, which is the 17th of Nov, not the 11th day of a 17th month. The "Independence Day" one was from 5-07-2005, the 5th of July, perhaps still the 4th in the poster's time zone. I've never figured out why we (Americans) write dates in a way that can cause such confusion, or switch our forks to the right hand. Just being contrary, I guess.

    As for "Tories," I beg to differ. Early accounts tell of the capture of my NY ancestor by "Tories." He was taken to Canada and held as a British prisoner. His captors were NOT conscientious objectors, or people "refusing assistance." Whatever it meant over in Jersey. . . .

    Cheers,

    Peggy

  3. #33
    Stephen M. Kohler
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    Smile Tories - From the Online Institue of Advanced Loyalists Studies!

    Peggy, Thanks for the engaging reply! Also, thanks for the guidance concerning the dates. Will put it to use another time. Meanwhile, let's talk "Tory". I'm not from New Jersey. I not from New York. I'm not from Conneticutt. However, I have read many accounts of Tories from those states at the Online Institue of Advanced Loyalists Studies and the many associated links. I came away thinking they present the reader with a pretty good idea that a Tory by any other name was NOT a Tory (Especially before December of 1776) depending upon circumstances and where you were located. Also, there are definetly distincions between Tories, Loyalists, and Royalists - subtle albeit but still distintive.

    In New Jersey supporters of the cause of freedom not necessarily willing to ratify or accept the Constitution of 1776 (Which was not the same Constitution we enjoy today) as writen were disdainfully referred to as Tories. These men were by no means supporters of the Crown and certainly not Loyalists, but they may have ended up living in Canada all the same becaues they expressed a different opinion to the the Constitution of 1776.

    Below is an interesting account of what some people thought of Tories.

    "Female Ancestors Heddon to Livingston, 1777

    New Ark July 9th 1777

    Sir

    The Commissioners are much Impeaded in their Business on Account of the Tory Women that remain with us; they Secret the goods & conceal every thing they possibly can from them, which gives them a great deal of Trouble, hear is one James O’BRIEN & his Wife that have been great plunderers & Concealers of goods, & when Called in for any thing, they petition to have Leave to go among Christians, & not be detain’d among Brutes as they call us in this Town, — pray make an order to send them to their Christian Friends, meaning our Enemies.

    A List of Ladies Whose Husbands are with the Enemy — Mary KINGSLAND, Mary STAGER, Filia RIKER, Froutis INTEREST, Sarah GARRABRANT, Mary GREENFIELD, Elizabeth HOWET, Martha HICKS, Mihitable HOUDINOT, Libtta VAN RIPER, Susana WICKS, Aulta VAN RIPER, Mary GARRABRANT, Jane DRUMMOND, Sarah SAYRES, Lydia SAYRES, Margaret NICHOLS, Elizabeth BROWN, Sarah CRAWFORT, & Abigail WARD. by sending the above Women after their Husbands, will be an Advantage to the State, and save the Committion a Great deal of Trouble.

    I am Sr. Your most Obedt. Huml.
    Servt.
    Jos: Hedden Junr.

    [To William Livingston]

    New Jersey Archives, William Livingston Papers (unpublished), Reel 5, Page 855."

    /R

    Stephen
    Washington, DC

  4. #34
    Famous for offering help & advice peter nicholl's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen M. Kohler
    Indians living on the Atlantic Seaboard of Eastern Canada and the United States share many common ancestors with the Celtic/Germanic peoples of the British Isles – and did long before Bjarni Herjolfsson, Leaf Erikson, Erik the Red, St. Brendan, or any Basque fishermen, Portuguese, Chinese, Japanese, Africans, and/or Phonecians/Carthaginians ever adventured to the Americas.

    Long before the Cherokee, Algonquin, and Iraquois inhabited the areas east of the Appalachian Mountains and west of the Atlantic Ocean there existed a great people that the Cherokee best describe as resembling Celtic peoples.
    The existence of these Celts in the Americas might certainly explain the many Celtic, Hebrew, and Roman artifacts and coins found over the last few centuries in archeological digs within North America.

    /R

    Stephen
    Washington, DC
    Interesting, has any research been done on the logistics of their arrival and the demographics of these people with a view to proposing a Minimum Viable Population for them?
    Peter
    Peter Nicholl
    Researching:Nicholl,Boater, Haselgrove & Vaughan

  5. #35
    A fountain of knowledge
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    Default More Tories & Loyalists

    Stephen, how ever did you manage to fit so much text in a post?

    From a PBS web page on the Revolution: "Tories - the name given to those in England who strongly supported the views of King George III and Parliament. Eventually the people in the colonies who remained loyal to the king and Parliament were also called Tories. According to the New York Packet, January 18, 1776, the name Tory was first given to Irish robbers or highwaymen who were always plundering and looking for villainous acts to do. If this is true, then the word originally meant those who plunder."

    In Wikpedia it says that the term originates from the English Civil War era, when it was used to describe Irish guerrilla fighters. Many later turned to banditry. It comes from the Irish term tóraidhe, modern Irish tóraí — outlaw, robber.

    Peggy

  6. #36
    A fountain of knowledge
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    Default Pre-Columbian North Americans

    Stephen wrote: Indians living on the Atlantic Seaboard of Eastern Canada and the United States share many common ancestors with the Celtic/Germanic peoples of the British Isles. . . .

    Is this based upon DNA testing?

    Peggy

  7. #37
    Stephen M. Kohler
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    Default Peoples of the Ancient Americas and the Atlantic Ridge

    Peter, it is very interesting! There has been a lot of research done over the last several hundred years. Much of which is either becoming available for the first time or is available now again after many years of hiding the information from view. What is known and accepted is the fact that the British Isles have moved time and again in their position along the Atlantic Ridge. They are hundreds of miles further north and east now than they were before the last Ice Age. The submerged landmass known to geologist as Avalon which forms the northern portion of the Continental Shelf off the coast of New England once danced along with the other British Isles for position amongst the British Isles. The British Isles are not one land mass divided by water and do not connect to the continent of Europe. Scotland is actually an entirely separate landmass than the rest of the Isles. Members of the Iroquois Nation have kept history that they came ashore in boats on the coasts of New England and Eastern Canadian thousands of years ago when their land submerged beneath the Atlantic Ocean.

    /R

    Stephen
    Last edited by Stephen M. Kohler; 30-04-2006 at 12:41 AM. Reason: Duplicate text

  8. #38
    Stephen M. Kohler
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    Default DNA of haplogroup X peoples

    Peggy,
    I can not point you to a particular study but I can direct you to look/browse for any genetic research conducted on the DNA of the Clovis people of North America and the Solutrean people of France and Spain. These people developed from a common group of European Caucasians known as haplogroup X tens of thousands of years ago. The Iriquois, Cherokee, Dakota peoples all have history that record their origins on islands in the Atlantic Ocean.

    /R

    Stephen
    Last edited by Stephen M. Kohler; 30-04-2006 at 5:26 AM.

  9. #39
    Stephen M. Kohler
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    Default

    Peggy,
    So many words. Such little time. It's in my roots!

    /R

    Stephen

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