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Thread: Why?

  1. #11
    Famous for offering help & advice peter nicholl's Avatar
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    Hi Peter
    With the Revolution and the War of 1812, the Americans have got the best of 3, so I don't really want to up the stakes to the best of 5, but ..... Having just seen the re-run the History of Britain which covered the period, you're right about some of the feeling over here, however with the time taken to cross the Atlantic I see it as less important than the fighting ability of the armies. Playing "what if ?" the outcome may have been different if Wolfe and Clive had still been about, they would have only been about 50/60. Also, there were the numbers involved, while the Americans did not have the same sort of regular army as the British, their pool of people to call upon was much larger (cf the UN in the Korean War). I would liken it to some sort of hybrid football match where the Colonists were playing NFL rules with an unlimited number of substitutions, while the British were playing FIFA Rules, 3 subs and no return of "rested" players: size is important. Still, it is still the Season of Goodwill, so Happy New Year to All.
    Peter

  2. #12
    Geoffers
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nicholl
    With the Revolution and the War of 1812, the Americans have got the best of 3, Peter
    I don't think the Amercans can claim to have gotten the best of the war of 1812. Surely the best that can be said for these two wars (if the word 'best' can be used in relation to any armed conflict) is one-a-piece.

    Waes haeil

    Geoffers

  3. #13
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    In order to say that anyone got the best of it, it is necessary to identify some tangible gains by one side or the other.

  4. #14
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    Default 1812

    Is it called "The War of 1812" in the UK? I'd have figured it just came under the general heading of the Napoleonic Wars. (I've always been relieved that Hornblower wasn't fighting any of our ships!)

    An old (1937) teachers' edition of an encyclopedia, which belonged to my grandaunt, says that the War of 1812 is "recognized today as quite an unnecessary struggle." The only "plus" I can recall from school history was the development/improvement of the US Navy, and of ship design. A large negative was that the New England states came close to seceding.

    Of course, my gr-gr-gr-grandfather in the NY Militia did get a pension, if that counts as a gain. :)

    Peggy

  5. #15
    Famous for offering help & advice peter nicholl's Avatar
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    Default Errrrm, oops

    Geoffers, I thought "Shall I point to something that might prove contentious by saying "I don't want to start WWIII, but.."", so I went for 2 out of 3. Which I suppose shows that the medium is the message.
    I do believe that although the Treaty of Ghent ended the War of 1812 (Yes, Peggy we do call it that over here- but that may well due to the song "The Battle of New Orleans" and Yul Brynner's portrayal of Lafayette) with the main issues unresolved and returned things, more or less, to the status quo ante, if other outcomes are taken into account, the US won on points. I don't see that Britain got a lot out of it, other than the Royal Navy getting a mention in The Star Spangled Banner. The Americans became far more united as a result of the War. The US Navy emerged as a creditable force, respected for its fighting ability and seamanship by the RN. The Springfield Armoury and Eli Whitney in their efforts to produce muskets brought the theory of mass production into reality. The expansion of the US brought people from all over the World, so I would say that in the same way that the Norman Conquest defined the future for Britain, the effects of what the Americans see as at least a Diplomatic Victory has shaped the World's future. Did I start off being embarressed?


    Oh and Peggy, don't worry about Hornblower, try Captain Jack Aubrey in Master and Commander, The far Side of The World- the book not the film
    Last edited by peter nicholl; 02-01-2005 at 9:59 PM.

  6. #16
    Geoffers
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    Hello Peter
    I think we'll have to agree to differ on the success to one side or the other of the 1812 war - but I'd have to agree with the encyclopedia quoted by Peggy:

    An old (1937) teachers' edition of an encyclopedia, which belonged to my grandaunt, says that the War of 1812 is "recognized today as quite an unnecessary struggle."

    Geoffers

  7. #17
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    Default 1812 - - - songs, fiction, reality

    [due to the song]

    Well, Peter, I wasn't going to mention the song. <G> Oddly enough, one of my recent genie discoveries is that an Anglo-Irish cousin of my ancestor was the surgeon for a regiment that ran through the briars and ran through the brambles. The poor chap must have been a busy man that day. The casualties were high for an "overtime" battle in an "unnecessary struggle."

    [try Captain Jack Aubrey]

    I've read one or two of the Aubrey books, but Hornblower is still my man. Can't switch from early favorites that easily. And have you ever read the story "Honario Harpplayer, RN" by Harry Harrison? :)

    Btw, does everyone know that there is an American burial site from the War of 1812 on the grounds of Dartmoor prison? "Dulce et decorum est. . . ." says the monument.

    Peggy

  8. #18
    Famous for offering help & advice peter nicholl's Avatar
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    Default Moving swiftly back (or when to stop digging)

    Hi Geoffers
    What I like about these forums (fora?) is that while the pessimist will never convince the optimist that the glass is half empty and the optimist will never convince the pessimist it's half full, it is all done with .
    Sorry Peggy have only read the Stainless Steel Rat, etc. And, Yes, Dartmoor was built as a PoW Camp, initially for the French and their Allies. It's an hour and a half's drive away for me.
    Anyway the original point, which I thought might be contentious, was about the Revolution and that the British had extended lines of supply and communications. Also, when on the move they had their camp followers with them and had to forage for a lot more to feed them all. For the Colonists, rather than a ragtag army of popular myth, the Americans had relatively short lines of supply and communication. The short service committment for most of them seems to mean that they could face the British with a fairly constant supply of fresh troops, skilled in Forest Warfare. On the Mythology Front, do many Americans know that "Washington crossing the Delaware" was painted in 1851 and the "Spirit of '76" painted in 1891? They certainly do the business in Heroism against Enormous Odds Stakes. My question is "Were the odds stacked in the other direction?"

    Peter

  9. #19
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    Default Anniversary of the "Battle of New Orleans" -

    TODAY !!!.......... Exactly 190 years later.......................

    January 8th is the day commemorated as the victory day for the Battle of New Orleans in the United States. Tragically, this battle was fought and only ended more than two weeks AFTER the 'Treaty of Ghent' was signed (Dec 24, 1814). Britain lost over 2000 soldiers (including General Pakenham) compared to the US's 71 killed.. Even after the British forces withdrew into the Gulf of Mexico, they continued firing on Fort St. Philip for over a week before finally sailing out to sea.

    Less than an hours drive from where I currently reside .....Britain sent upwards of 14,000 troops to fight in the Louisiana campaign during the War of 1812. United States troups were in the area of 5,000. US troups, led by Major General Andrew Jackson consisted of regular army soldiers; militias from 4 different states, Louisiana pirates (see history of Jean Lafitte), Choctaw (prounounced Chaw-taw) Indians; and free black soldiers.

    Ironically, this day (January 8th) is no longer celebrated in the United States with parades, fireworks, picnics, etc.(similar to the current 4th of July celebrations) as it once was during the Presidency of Andrew Jackson and shortly thereafter.

    Johnny Horton's song 'The Battle of New Orleans" (1959) - taking his tune from the old " 8th of January" song - is not quite in-tune(sic) to the memory of all these fine men who gave their lives for their county and/or beliefs.
    Last edited by Guest; 06-08-2007 at 4:12 PM.

  10. #20
    CaseTested
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    Default Additional to New Orleans...symposium

    A local note here .......... this past Saturday, the 8th of January in New Orleans, Louisiana - the day known as the day of the 'Battle of New Orleans' and "The last battle of the last war ever fought between England and the United States" ...a symposium at the Historic New Orleans Research Center was held.
    The overall theme was to showcase the "great courage and fortitude" displayed by British soldiers and seamen. The symposium featured the director of National Museums Liverpool, England and the curator and head of research services for the Historic New Orleans Collection's Williams Research Center with history scholars from many U.S. universities.


    Quote Originally Posted by peter nicholl
    :..........................................- but that may well due to the song "The Battle of New Orleans" and Yul Brynner's portrayal of Lafayette).......................

    A notation to your post, if you please....
    Me thinks you may have yor Frenchies confused (although the provincial 'pronuciation' of the name is identical).

    Here in southern Louisiana, there is a vast difference.

    Yul Brynner played 'Jean Lafitte ' ( c.1780-c.1826) in the 1959 version of the movie 'The Bucaneer', a remake of the 1931 film by the same name, staring Frederick March.

    'Lafayette' (actually Gilbert du Mottier, the Marquis de Lafayette, 1757-1834) was not a pirate!.............but that is a different story!

    It is indeed interesting to reflect on the fact that despite the turbulant early relationship between England and the American colonists, our two countries have long since been strongly united.

    And yet. after 200 years of practice, we just can't seem to quite learn the original lyrics to this honorable tune ...........

    Regards,
    Alex
    Last edited by Guest; 11-10-2007 at 6:00 PM.

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