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  1. #21

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    Tony,
    I think you got my "p.s." note but didn't see the long and most recent message that I sent before that. I sent you another letter from Arthur/Arnold.
    Regardless of whether he was good or bad or both, Arthur was a fascinating character. Someday when you have enough information about him, I'd urge you to publish it all as an article. Maybe even a book, but at least an article.
    Make sure to read the October 23, 1902 note from Arthur to Brother Alonzo that I most recently sent to you.
    By the way, what does the "23 x 02" at the bottom of the note mean?
    Darryl

  2. #22

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    Tony,
    I subscribed to Newspaperarchives.com to advance this research we are doing. While the cost hurt (I'm on a very limited income), I figured that I could use the subscription to turn up information for my own various historical research projects. You won't believe what I found. It should be noted that your great-great grandfather and his associate Green were trying to take Palestine by purchase rather than by war. Nevertheless, it is a bit perplexing to hear a pacifist talking about a "crusade" and "conquest of the Holy Land" and using a pacifist newspaper to push that. Here is the article:

    The Hamilton Evening Sun (Hamilton, Ohio newspaper), Wednesday, November 25, 1903 (Vol. 2, No. 279), page 3:
    "Pledge Millions for New Crusade
    Redemption of Holy Land and Establishment
    of the Republic of Palestine Promised by English and American Promoters

    New York, Nov.25

    Another step in the astonishing crusade for the conquest of Palestine, of which Arthur Smedley Green, a young Greenwich, Conn.[Connecticut] artist is the founder, is the addition of his name as associate editor of Banner of Peace, the organ of the League of Peace, in England. Arnold Delisle, founder of the league, who is said to be of family of the Earl of Dudley, is editor of the paper, and devoted the greater part of current issue to an appeal for the new crusade in which he says:
    "The Republic of Palestine is more than a mere idea existing in the minds of writers and their colleagues. I have before me a lengthy list of the names of pledged supporters of the crusade, and they are men and women whose united wealth probably exceeds five hundred million pounds, some being of royal blood. On the head of at least one of them rests an imperial diadem.
    A Holy Republic
    This is the nearest approach yet made to a positive statement as to whom has been pledged to support the stupendous undertaking of the purchase and reclaiming of the Holy Land by Jews and Christians combined. The ultimate idea is to form a Republic of Jesus Christ.
    Arthur S. Green has been in New York for several months preparing for the life work before him, and at present is visiting in Hempstead, L.I. [Long Island]. Progress of the movement has been slow because of his personal lack of funds and while much has been pledged to carry on the work, he has hesitated about asking for money in advance of the crusade assuming a concrete form."
    So there it is.
    Tony, please read the several messages I sent to you yesterday morning (April 26), particularly the lengthy first one about Arthur's association with Princess Wiszniewska. I really, really want to hear your thoughts about that second letter by Arthur and the associated facts.

  3. #23

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    Hi Darryl

    Sorry I have not got back to you
    Rest assured that I have read every post with interest and this latest one is taking a bit of time to digest
    Thank you for subscribing to the newspaper archive
    I am considering my options with the uk version so if this happens I will happily do lookups for you as you have so very kindly done for me
    I will try and give it some time over the weekend and respond fully,

    Thanks again

    Tony

  4. #24

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    Tony,
    Don't worry about taking time to reply. I know this is a lot to digest. I'm trying to come to terms with that last discovered piece also. It's natural that the movements that Arthur was involved with would include a few characters and eccentrics. And--wow!--you and I have uncovered a couple of them! Arthur was a remarkable character himself, apparently, and his associate Green would seem to "take the cake," as we say here in the U.S.
    It's the Memorial Day weekend here in the United States. I look forward to hearing from you whenever you have some time to write. May God bless you, my friend.
    Darryl

  5. #25

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    Tony,
    Google "Arthur Smedley Green" and you will come up with a few articles that were published in his time about his plan to buy Palestine.
    Darryl

  6. #26

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    Tony,
    I just found out something interesting. Go to Google Books and type in the browser "Sir Arnold Delisle."
    In the 1600's Prince Rupert, Lord Admiral and the nephew of the executed King Charles I, sent a message to the King of Portugal and the bearer of the message was Sir Arnold Delisle. Do you think this had anything to do with your great-great grandfather choosing this as his pen name?
    Darryl

  7. #27

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    Lesley,
    I wrote a note to Tony Lee-Delisle via this forum and sent it, but it was never posted. I then posted a second version of the same message and it also "disappeared." Then last night, June 14th, I wrote a third version of the message (which was the best version) and sent it, but it has also not been posted. I don't want three versions of the same message to show up here! Tony and others will think I'm daft!! If the June 14th (the third) version did transmit, please make sure that it is the only version posted.
    Do you know why these three messages disappeared? Is there a way of retrieving them? I remember that on the third try I had clicked on "reply to thread" and then sent a "quick reply.'
    Darryl Thompson

  8. #28

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    Hi Darryl
    I am sorry I have not been in contact recently we have had a small family issue to deal with which has taken all my spare time. I have spent a little time looking up some of the book titles you uncovered and found a lot of them in various academic libraries across the globe. Hopefully I will be able some day to visit some these libraries and at least view them if not get transcripts. I did try and find out a bit about the league of peace and Arthur Smedley Greene with not a great deal of evidence to link them. I did find another Arnold Delisle in Canada though, which was fascinating. It unlikely to be the same person knowing what I do about the family. I have had no luck in linking mother Ann Lee with my ancestor, there is no trace of a brother called Joseph so far I will keep plodding on as time permits and I thank you for bringing this to my attention. It has renewed my enthusiasm but I doubt I will get to write a book about it.
    I hope your missing post turns up. I don’t know if we can somehow communicate off forum.
    Speak soon
    Tony

  9. #29

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    Tony,
    I may just have found something major. There was a pacifist organization that was called the Universal Peace Union and that was founded in the United States by Alfred H. Love. There is a book written about it. The organization evidently became international. The Mount Lebanon North Family of Shakers in New York State were very involved with the organization for many years. The Universal Peace Union published a periodical called "The Peacemaker and Court of Arbitration." Volumes 23-24 of that publication can be found online at Google Books. Tonight I just found a list of officers of the organization for 1903-1904. There is a long list of vice-presidents as apparently every region that had a chapter of the organization was headed by a vice-president. Now here is the interesting part. Among the listed vice-presidents is "Arnold DeLisle, Netherton, Dudley, England." Furthermore, on page 142 of the same volume it tells about a gathering of the organization in Colorado." A "Mrs. Spray" displayed portraits of famous peace activists and members of the organization and gave a commentary about the portraits to the gathered assembly. One of the portraits exhibited was that of "Arnold DeLisle."
    If you go to Wikipedia and look up "Arthur H. Love" and "Universal Peace Union," you will find that all of the Universal Peace Union's records are now at Swarthmore College, a Quaker college here in the United States. Remember, I had encouraged you to contact them.
    It is interesting that Mrs. Spray's collection of portraits puts Arthur Lee/Arnold DeLisle (notice the capitalization of the "L" in the name) among some very famous people includeing Clara Barton and Edward Everett Hale, both noted people in American history.
    I've found a way for us to communicate offline. My postal mailing address is already published online in connection to my Shaker work, so there is no harm contacting me by mail. My address is: Darryl Thompson, P.O. Box 42, Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire, USA 03837
    Darryl

  10. #30

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    P.S. Tony, American Shakerism was founded by Mother Ann Lee, but British Shakerism was founded by James and Jane Wardley, a husband and wife who were tailors by trade and were (depending on who you talk to about this) either Quakers or people who had at least had attended Quaker meetings and imbibed Quaker principles. James and Jane had a celibate marriage and encouraged celibacy among their followers but did not require it as a condition of membership. Mother Ann was like a daughter to the Wardleys and they eventually conceded leadership of the group to her as they recognized she had "greater light." Mother Ann made celibacy a requirement for membership in the group. Now here is the point I'm making: Whereas Shakerism is usually associated with Manchester, it actually first began at Bolton-on-the-Moor (about 12 miles from Manchester) and then moved to Manchester when John Townley, a very well-to-do bricklayer whose wife had joined the group and used to travel to Bolton to attend meetings, invited the Wardleys to live in his house in Manchester. I know that you cannot connect your Shropshire ancestors with Manchester, but have you tried to connect them with Bolton?
    The above is basically the gist of the message that I repeatedly sent to you but which never transmitted. I was encouraging you to see if you could find a tie between your family and Bolton.

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