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  1. #11

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    Tony,
    I found the letter tonight. Years ago I had printed it out from the microfilm and put it in a scrapbook. The letter is found on Reel 22 of the Western Reserve Historical Society Shaker Collection Microfilm, IV-A:46, FB. The genealogical connection to Mother Ann Lee of the Shakers is outlined by Arthur in the second to the last paragraph. To convey Arthur's style and emphasis, I have indicated in parentheses where he has underlined words or increased the size of the print to stress a point.
    Here is the letter:
    "Fair View," Netherton, Worc.,.
    6th November 1902

    A.G,. Hollister, Esq.
    My Dear Sir,
    I thank you for the instructive pamphlets you have so kindly sent to me, which I have read with real interest and sympathy. On the sex-union question, I am entirely with you. I have held your view, and practiced it, ever since my marriage (or rather, my wedding) ten years ago. My mother, (since dead) being a confined invalid, a mistress of my house was necessary, and on that account chiefly I was induced, when 25 years old, to wed a Christian lady of equal age. We have lived together in almost perfect harmony since our wedding day--never forgetting that we are "not as the beasts that perish," bur remembering that we have each a spiritual["spiritual" underlined] nature which must rule the physical ["physical" underlined], and take precedence in all things.
    I can accept your teaching generally ["generally" underlined]; but with regard to Spiritualism I have personally had no experience and can therefore only say "I don't know." Certainly I have heard it roundly condemned as a "devilish doctrine," but for my own part I present an open mind on the subject.
    Until the commencement of the War in South Africa, I was a member of the church of Christian Brethren, but I felt morally bound to sever my connection with them owing to their attitude on the War. Being a preacher ["preacher" underlined] among them, I desired to condemn ["condemn" underlined] it, as inconsistent with the teaching of Christ, and as an outrage on the "Christian profession" of this country, but I was not allowed to do so. Therefore I came out ["came out" underlined] from them, and have remained separate ["separate" underlined] ever since. Twelve months ago I felt overwhelmingly impressed ["overwhelmingly impressed" underlined] to found the League of Peace and publish "The Banner of Peace," which, from a pecuniary point of view, has been a considerable out-of-pocket loss. Next year, however, I hope to recoup myself from the renewed subscriptions which will no doubt flow in.
    I send you a copy of my book "A Strong Delusion" ["A Strong Delusion"underlined]--but in doing so I should warn you that it does not altogether reflect my present views ["present views" underlined],--though in my condemnation of Priestcraft ["Priestcraft" underlined] my attitude remains entirely unchanged. Please, therefore, remember this when you read therein anything which meets with your disapprobation. Remember also that I am comparatively a young man [36] who is seeking the Truth, and not one who claims to have already attained it. One by one I have thrown overboard many of the 'beliefs' in which I have been brought up.
    And now in conclusion I will tell you something that will be sure to interest you. Your prophetess, Ann Lee, when she sailed for America on the 19th May, 1774, left behind her a brother (Joseph)[name "Joseph" underlined], who had never identified himself with his sister's teaching and claims, and therefore perhaps has never been mentioned in your publications. This brother was my direct ancestor. [This last sentence is in large print and underlined]. During the past century the Lee family has progressed in a worldly sense, so that now some of us are well-to-do and hold positions of honour and influence in the Civil Service of the Government, and others in the Established Church.
    In the hope, my dear Sir, that myself and the Shaker Community may become better acquainted in the not distant future,
    Believe me,
    Yours very faithfully,
    Arthur Lee
    (writing under the nom-de-plume of "Arnold de Lisle.")

    [Note: This last phrase in parenthesis about the non-de-plume is written by Arthur in the text and is not a comment in parentheses added by me].

    So, Tony, there it is. As I have re-read the letter, I realize that my memory was faulty on two points. First, I said that he had signed his letter to Brother Alonzo as "Arnold D'Lisle," but it turns out that he signed it "Arnold de Lisle"--small "d," no apostrophe. Secondly and more importantly, I had said that Arthur had said that he was descended from a brother of Ann's named John, but upon re-reading the letter I find that he says he is descended from a brother of hers named Joseph--Joseph Lee.
    I'm very much looking forward to hearing your thoughts on all of this and I have more material to send to you.

  2. #12

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    Hi Darryl

    Thankyou for posting the story from the magazine, I am not afraid of scandal as it puts some flesh on the bones of my tree. Having read this though, do you think it casts some doubt on his true intentions in contacting the Shakers?

    The date of publication is of interest too as I have been trying to find when he and the family moved to Europe, Up to now I knew it was after 1901 and before 1909 (year of my Grandfather's birth in Budapest) This would appear to have him located in the UK in 1907. I wonder if he fled the UK because his actions were catching up on him, its an interesting thought.

    I would love to find some evidence to support the link between my family and Mother Ann Lee, but I can only go back as far as late 1700s in Shropshire, I cannot find a link to Manchester so far.

    I have written to the Royal Historical Society to find out if they hold membership records for this time, I would love to know if this story is true.

    I think I omitted to mention that my ancestors full birth name was Arthur Arnold Lee, so this coincides with your findings as he could have used either name, particularly if he was trying to scam people

    The book found, I think is a typo because I do know he wrote a book called the History of the Red Cross Movement, and a further search has confirmed of its existence. There was at one time a copy in the British Library but I would really like to get my hands on a copy. There is a copy in America here https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/3920453. I also believe that at one time he worked for the ICRC (international committee of the Red Cross)in Switzerland before settling in Hungary

    I also was told that he translated a Hungarian book called the "Art of Wrought Iron Gatework" but so far I have not been able to confirm this.

    I have a copy of a book that he collaborated on which has been signed in his own hand, I am especially fond of this as it really speaks to me. This one is called "Austria of the Austrians and Hungary of the Hungarians". He wrote the Hungarian section and is a description of the country (a bit like the Lonely planet series of its day)

    I also heard that he was a pacifist and a spiritualist, and there is a family story (non evidenced) that he corresponded with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle on the latter (in case you are unaware Conan Doyle wrote the Sherlock Holmes stories. I have tried to find evidence but so far without much luck.

    I believe that it was his pacifist views that made him unpopular with this family (see original story at the top of this page) but I guess with what you have told me it could have been because he was a rogue and a crook

    Do you have any links to the two stories you have shared - I would love to have copies of these to insert into my tree. My father would be fascinated

    I will stop here for now

    If you manage to find any more information please do share as my research time is limited due to full time work.

    Thanks again

    Kind Regards

    Tony

  3. #13

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    Hi Darryl

    This is brilliant stuff, I can't wait to share it with my family

    I am now certain we have a match because in the 1901 UK Census he is living in Netherton, He was born in 1867 which would make him 36 in 1902

    Thank you, Thank you

    I really must get back to work now

    Regards

    Tony

  4. #14

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    Have you checked the newspapers around the start of the 20th century? It sounds as though he might have attracted some attention. The British Newspaper Archive and Find My Past both have good collections.

  5. #15

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    Lesley,
    That is a wonderful idea and I'm sure Tony will try it. Historic newspapers have been a huge help to me in my own research!
    Darryl

  6. #16

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    Hi Darryl and Lesley

    Do either of you have access to the newspaperarchive.com? I did a free search for Arnold Delisle and found the following, but I do not have the funds to subscribe for what may be a dead end, and I feel that I may have difficulty cancelling after the free trial.

    https://newspaperarchive.com/tags/?p...ld&pl=delisle/

    The teaser text reads...

    Top search results for
    “Arnold Delisle”
    Hamilton Evening Sun
    25 Nov 1903
    Hamilton, Ohio

    Arnold Delisle, founder of the league, who is said to be of family of the Earl of Dudley, is editor of the pal...

    I am intrigued by this because if it is him then he is now saying that he is related to the Earl of Dudley, which does seem a bit far fetched, but the words "Arnold Delisle, founder of the league" tie in with the letter to the shakers where he states he is "founder of the league of peace"

    He does have a link with Dudley, but only as a place of residence, Dudley is a town in the UK

    In addition to this, the search turned up a few other results which I would like to explore too.

    I would never have thought to search for Arnold Delisle as I knew him as Arthur.

    Thanks Again

    Tony

  7. #17

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    Tony,
    I don't have access to newspaper.archive.com, although I can go about trying to see if I can subscribe (which depends on the cost as I'm on a limited income). But I'm intrigued and will at least investigate this avenue. There might be an alternate way that I can also get that Hamilton Sun article.
    There is another note from Arthur Lee to Brother Alonzo Hollister that I want to share with you. This was written prior to the other letter I sent to you, prior to his revealing to Brother Alonzo that "Arnold de Lisle" was Arthur Lee:
    "October 23,1902
    Dear Sir,
    Princess Wiszniewska has asked me to send you a copy of the "Banner of Peace." In doing so I beg to ask you to allow me to enroll you as a member of the League of Peace [Note: "League of Peace" underlined here], which has done a most useful work during the recent war in South Africa.
    May I say also that an article from your pen would be much appreciated by our readers.
    Yours faithfully,
    Arnold de Lisle
    Netherton, Dudley, Worcestershire
    23 x02"

    Now I can tell you something about Princess Wiszniewska. She founded the "Alliance of Women for Peace," an international organization. Her first name was Adelaide. The Shakers of Mount Lebanon, New York, were involved with the organization. Eldress Anna White of the Mount Lebanon North Family (a "family" one of the governmental/social/ economic units within a particular Shaker Village was organized--basically a semi-independent neighborhood within the village)was particularly involved. Eldress Anna and Eldress Leila Taylor wrote a book called "Shakerism: Its Meaning and Message" that was published in 1905. On page 217 iy says: "Eldress Anna was also associated with the late Princess Wiszniewska, daughter of Victor Hugo, leader of the "Alliance of Women for Peace," whose centre is at Paris, France, and having obtained five thousand signatures to the Petition for International Disarmament, more than any one else in the State, she was appointed Vice President of the Alliance for the State of New York. The active work is constantly carried on at Mount Lebanon, and few women visitors are allowed to leave the North Family residence wihout the Petition being offered for their signature. Hundreds of names are thus secured."
    This all relates to World War I, which was the original focus of this thread. Princess Wiszniewska and other pacifists saw an international arms race which they feared would end in a cataclysmic bloodbath. To prevent this from happening, Princess Wiszniewska and her group gathered thousands of signatures from various countries. The petition called upon the nations of the world to mutually agree to disarm. The organization stressed the value of international arbitration and backed the idea of a world court to settle international disputes, alternatives to settling conflict by war. Of course, World War I did come, which sadly shows how ineffective these efforts were. But, nevertheless, the peace movement has persisted all through these decades. Hopefully someday it will bear real fruit and we will have worldwide peace, but that goal still seems far, far in the future.
    Now this brings me to some sources of additional information that you need to investigate. Swarthmore College is a Quaker college in the United States. Their library has a collection related to famous pacifists and the peace moveme4nt. I think that may be in the Special Collections Department. I know for ac fact that this collection contains one or more newspaper articles on Princess Wiszniewska. The collection may also contain information on Arthur Lee/Arnold de Lisle, although I am just guessing that.
    Someone has told me that the Alliance of Women for Peace either evolved into or was eventually absorbed by a modern European organization for women that still exists. Swarthmore could help you find out what that organization is named and you could contact that organization and see what they have about both Arnold/Arthur and about his contacts with Princess Wiszniewska.
    The above note written by Arthur mentions some kind of work done by the League of Peace in the Second Boer War. Could this be some kind of humanitarian work, some kind of humanitarian medical aid to the wounded? Finding a South African historian who could help you with this might yield further information.
    In historical research sources lead to more sources. Doors open and lead to other doors. Contacts lead to more contacts. So follow the trail and see where it leads.
    Tony, I hope that this information is helpful both to you and to other researchers. Please keep me posted about your progress.
    Darryl

  8. #18

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    P.S. to my most recent message.
    Tony, I think the Mount Lebanon Shakers may have been mistaken about Princess Wiszniewska being the daughter of Victor Hugo, although I might be wrong about this. But somewhere I heard that her maiden name was Hagot, not Hugo.
    By the way, how do you pronounce the "DeLisle" part of your surname? "Dee-Liz-Lee", "Day-Liz-Lay"? "Dee-Liz-el?" "Day-Leel"? Also, do you put a space between the "De" and the "Lisle" or is there no space?

  9. #19

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    Hi Darryl

    This is a question I get a lot as you can imagine, and there have been many imaginative pronunciations over the years

    We say it as follows - D'Lyle and there is no space. ( the D being short, not long as in Dee)

    Its literal meaning is from the French De L'Isle (of or from the island)

    As far as I can gather it is entirely made up by my ancestor and there is no family connection to any family with this name, which appears very regularly on internet searches in the US and Canada as well as France

    Speak Soon

    Tony

  10. #20

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    Tony,
    In one of Arthur's letters, that I sent to you, he mentions that he was at one time a preacher in the Church of the Brethren. It also occurs to me that you could contact the Church of the Brethren and see what information they have about Artur Lee/Arnold De Lisle.
    Darryl

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