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  1. #11
    Stuman
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    Default Charge of the light/heavy brigade

    There may be a little confusion caused by the fact that there was an unsuccessful charge by the light brigade and a succesful charge by the heavy brigade. The heavy brigade charge was in the same general area but was not against the entrenched Russian cannons. Try a Google search for the whole battle.

    Stuart

  2. #12
    A fountain of knowledge
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    Florida, USA
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    Default

    Hi Maureen & Stuart,

    I wouldn't mind having an ancestor who was in that charge of the Heavy Brigade! Uphill and against overwhelming odds, wasn't it? Tennyson wrote about it too, but the poem deserves (IMO) to be little known. (Btw, has anyone read Kipling's poem about survivors of the Light Brigade going hungry while school children recite "Honour the Light Brigade"?)

    Perhaps some resident military expert will remind us exactly what is meant by Light and Heavy in the context? Been a while since I read Woodham-Smith's book, and Flashman at the Charge.

    Peggy

  3. #13
    Guy Etchells
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    Default

    Light Cavalry (Hussars) were skirmishers used to attack retreating infantry and to scout ahead of the army. Lightly armoured on smaller nimble horses.
    Heavy Cavalry (Dragoons) were the shock troops or tanks of the time used to attack the opposing army and cut swaths through their lines. Heavily armoured on heavy horses
    Cheers
    Guy

  4. #14
    A fountain of knowledge
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    Default

    Thanks Guy.

    Heavies ride bigger horses. Ok. But could you say a bit more about "armoured" in 1854 terms? How armoured? For a second there I was picturing medieval metal suits. :) Does it refer to a difference in weaponry/other equipment carried? Or were the designations a holdover from the days of those metal suits? Or . . . ?

    Peggy

  5. #15
    Denmark
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    Default Charge of the Light Brigade

    Hi Peggy,

    I have emailed you a copy of the sketch I have of the "Charge"

    Maureen

  6. #16
    Lawrence W. Crider
    Guest

    Default Light and Heavy Brigade Charges

    There seems to be a great deal of confusion here regarding the charges of Oct 25th. The Heavy Brigade, made up of:
    1. the Fourth Dragoon Guards
    2. the Fifth Dragoon Guards
    3. the First Dragoons
    4. the 2nd Dragoons
    5. the 6th Dragoons
    charged a major contingent of Russian cavalry (several times their number) at around 9:00 am, and subsequently routed them.

    Two or so hours later, the Light Brigade, made up of:
    1. the Fourth Light Dragoons
    2. the Eight Hussars
    3. the Eleventh Hussars
    4. the 13th Light Dragoons
    5. the 17th Lancers
    mistakenly charged the guns at the east end of the North Valley. Although they arrived at the guns (despite being fired at from three sides (front, left and right), they were not supported and were forced to then retreat. Roughly 1/3 of their number were killed or captured and about 2/3 of their horses lost, making them effectively cease to exist as a force to contend with.

    As to your query re W. Foulks of the 5th Dragoon Guards:

    His name does not appear on the Muster Rolls of that regiment for the period of September to December 1854, which would make it almost certain that he was not in the Crimea at the time of the Heavy Brigade Charge. I was unable to find his name listed on the Medal Rolls for that Regiment, however, I was using the CD-ROM from Yesteryears Genealogy, and some pages are difficult, if not impossible to read. Perhaps a query to the Regimental museum would be in order.

    Lawrence W. Crider
    Author, In Search of the Light Brigade
    Editor, the War Correspondent

  7. #17
    janered
    Guest

    Default light brigade

    Having just found this site and seeing Peggy's offer of looking up relatives in her special book- I wonder if that is still possible.

    I have a relative John Turner (b1821 Isleham Cambridgeshire)
    who was a Colour Sergeant in the 11th Hussars
    and I was wondering if he was in the charge of the light brigade.

    On the 1851 his wife says he is a marine but not at home, but they are living in Manor St which is opposite Brompton Barracks, Gillingham.
    On 1861 in Chatham.(moving to Hounslow by 1864)
    On the 1871 census he is listed as a chelsea pensioner living at Militia cottage, High St, Hounslow.
    On the 1881 census he is now living at 11th hussars barracks, Hounslow.

    I would like to know if he was present at C of LB and was he injured, is that why he is a chelsea pensioner (as it seems quite young)?
    Also does the census fit in with the 11th Hussars movements?
    Also what do Colour Sergeants do?

    Any help would be gratefully recieved
    Thanks
    jane

  8. #18
    A fountain of knowledge
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    Default John Turner

    Hi Jane,

    I don't see a John Turner listed in the book with the 11th Hussars.

    The other questions are over my head, but I'll be interested in seeing answers from those better informed.

    Regards,

    Peggy

  9. #19
    Geoffers
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by janered
    I have a relative John Turner (b1821 Isleham Cambridgeshire)
    who was a Colour Sergeant in the 11th Hussars

    On the 1851 his wife says he is a marine
    This seems a bit of a contradiction. Have you obtained his service record?

    I would like to know if he was present at C of LB and was he injured, is that why he is a chelsea pensioner (as it seems quite young)?
    Men joined the army young, so finding pensioners in their 40s is not unusual.

    Geoffers

  10. #20
    Lawrence W. Crider
    Guest

    Default The Search for John Turner, 11th Hussars

    If you have the regiment right, then John Turner did not serve in that regiment during the Crimean War. You mention he was a marine in 1851. He may have transferred to the 11th Hussars after the Crimean War. There was a John Turner who served in the 8th Hussars . . .

    Below is a list of men with the last name of Turner serving in the Light Brigade during the Crimean War. I include this because sometimes people
    went by their middle name. As you can see, the only verified Chargers in this list were Edward in the 8th Hussars and George of the 11th Hussars. Note that some of these could not be your forbear as they died much earlier than he did.

    ☼ Turner, Pte Henry, (1263), 4th LD (p64)
    Enl 04-46. To Scut 04-04 & fr Scut 05-11-55 [55-2-5]. W/ Svc Trps entire period [54-1 to 56-1]. Medal [204] w/ A [204], B [229], I [204], & S [222] Clasps.

    ► Turner, Pte Samuel, (685), 4th LD (p64)
    Bn in Worcester [54-3-20]. Enl 06-11-32 [54-3-20]. Prior Occ: Weaver [54-3-20]. Died 08-31-54 [54-3-5] at Varna of cholera [54-3-20]. DB Charge. Not on MRs, though embarked, died enrt to Crimea.

    ☼ Turner, Pte William, (1115), 4th LD (p64)
    Enl 1841. Abs all 3 Mstrs as Batman to Cpt Warde, RM, at the Mil Acad at Sandhurst [54-1-5] & thru 05-31-54 [54-2-5]. W/ Svc Trps entire period [54-1 to 56-1]. Medal [204] w/ A [204], B [229], I [204], & S [222] Clasps.

    ☼ Turner, Pte Edward, (1238), 8th H (p119)
    Bn in Croydon [54-4-20], Surrey. Enl 10-16-52 [54-4-20]. Prior Occ: Baker [54-4-20]. Abd Shooting Star fr 04-25
    & thru 2nd Mstr; Outpost Duty 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. Rode in Charge; killed [54-4-20][Not on CR]. Medal [283/288] w/
    A [283/288], B [300], & S [312] Clasps.

    ☼ Turner, Pte Henry, (725), 8th H (p119)
    Enl 1841. At Trowbridge 1st Mstr; abs 02-14-54 [54-1-5]. At Plymouth 1st Mstr; abd Wilson Kennedy fr 05-02
    & thru 2nd Mstr; Outpost Duty 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. At Scut 2nd & 3rd Mstrs [54-4-5]. Died 01-02-55 at Scut [55-5-5].
    Medal [283/288] w/ I [283/288] & S [312] Clasps.

    ☼ Turner, Pte John, (1370), 8th H
    Bn in Manchester [56-4-24]. Enl 07-14-54 [56-4-24]. Prior Occ: Clerk [56-4-24]. Fr England 07-14; shows on Svc
    Mstrs fr 07-24-55 [55-3-5]. AA Charge. Ds 08-31-56 fr Dundalk [56-4-24]. Medal [292] w/ S [312] Clasp. LN looks like
    “Twiner” [55D-1-5].

    ☼ Turner, Pte t the Mil Acad at Sandhurst [54-1-5] & thru 05-31-54 [54-2-5]. W/ Svc Trps entire period [54-1 to 56-1]. Medal [204] w/ A [204], B [229], I [204], & S [222] Clasps.

    ☼ Turner, Pte Edward, (1238), 8th H (p119)
    Bn in Croydon [54-4-20], Surrey. Enl 10-16-52 [54-4-20]. Prior Occ: Baker [54-4-20]. Abd Shooting Star fr 04-25
    & thru 2nd Mstr; Outpost Duty 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. Rode in Charge; killed [54-4-20][Not on CR]. Medal [283/288] w/
    A [283/288], B [300], & S [312] Clasps.

    ☼ Turner, Pte Henry, (725), 8th H (p119)
    Enl 1841. At Trowbridge 1st Mstr; abs 02-14-54 [54-1-5]. At Plymouth 1st Mstr; abd Wilson Kennedy fr 05-02
    & thru 2nd Mstr; Outpost Duty 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. At Scut 2nd & 3rd Mstrs [54-4-5]. Died 01-02-55 at Scut [55-5-5].
    Medal [283/288] w/ I [283/288] & S [312] Clasps.

    ☼ Turner, Pte John, (1370), 8th H
    Bn in Manchester [56-4-24]. Enl 07-14-54 [56-4-24]. Prior Occ: Clerk [56-4-24]. Fr England 07-14; shows on Svc
    Mstrs fr 07-24-55 [55-3-5]. AA Charge. Ds 08-31-56 fr Dundalk [56-4-24]. Medal [292] w/ S [312] Clasp. LN looks like
    “Twiner” [55D-1-5].

    ☼ Turner, Pte George, (1358), 11th H (p184)
    Bn in Burslem [54-4-20], Staffordshire. Enl 09-25-47 [54-4-20]. Prior Occ: Crate Maker ? [54-4-20] or Bootmaker.
    At sea 2nd Mstr; at Varna 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. Rode in Charge; severely wounded [CR 37 as “W / D”; a cannonball
    severed his left arm at the shoulder [LS 132]. Died 10-28-54 on voyage to Scutari [54-4-5, 20]. Wife, residence not
    known [55-1 & 2-20]. Medal [394/401] w/ A [394/401], B [410], & S [421] Clasps.

    Turner, Pte Charles, (2153), 13th LD
    Enl 01-28-56 in Liverpool at age 21 [56D-1-7]. DNE. Not on MRs.

    ► Turner, Pte William John, (1546), 13th LD
    Bn in Bristol [56-3-24]. Enl 01-24-54 in Westminster at age 18 [54-1-7]. Prior Occ: Clerk [56-3-24]. To Dep at
    Birmingham 04-01-54 [54-2-24]. W/ sick horse at Birmingham 06-07 to 06-30-54 [54D-2-5]. Prom fr Pte to Sgt [55D-
    2-3, 5]. To Scut 06-17-55 [55D-2-3]. Joined fr Gen Dep 10-31-55, at Scut 2nd & 3rd Mstrs [55-4-3] & all 3 Mstrs [56-1-
    3]. Dem to Pte 04-01-56 by Ct Martial [56-1-3]. Dc by purch 09-14-56 at Ballincolig [56-3-24]. Not on MRs, though
    embkd, never arrived in Crimea.

    ☼ Turner, Pte David, (1456), 17th L
    Abs 08-11 & 08-12; to Svc TrGeorge, (1358), 11th H (p184)
    Bn in Burslem [54-4-20], Staffordshire. Enl 09-25-47 [54-4-20]. Prior Occ: Crate Maker ? [54-4-20] or Bootmaker.
    At sea 2nd Mstr; at Varna 3rd Mstr [54-2-5]. Rode in Charge; severely wounded [CR 37 as “W / D”; a cannonball
    severed his left arm at the shoulder [LS 132]. Died 10-28-54 on voyage to Scutari [54-4-5, 20]. Wife, residence not
    known [55-1 & 2-20]. Medal [394/401] w/ A [394/401], B [410], & S [421] Clasps.

    Turner, Pte Charles, (2153), 13th LD
    Enl 01-28-56 in Liverpool at age 21 [56D-1-7]. DNE. Not on MRs.

    ► Turner, Pte William John, (1546), 13th LD
    Bn in Bristol [56-3-24]. Enl 01-24-54 in Westminster at age 18 [54-1-7]. Prior Occ: Clerk [56-3-24]. To Dep at
    Birmingham 04-01-54 [54-2-24]. W/ sick horse at Birmingham 06-07 to 06-30-54 [54D-2-5]. Prom fr Pte to Sgt [55D-
    2-3, 5]. To Scut 06-17-55 [55D-2-3]. Joined fr Gen Dep 10-31-55, at Scut 2nd & 3rd Mstrs [55-4-3] & all 3 Mstrs [56-1-
    3]. Dem to Pte 04-01-56 by Ct Martial [56-1-3]. Dc by purch 09-14-56 at Ballincolig [56-3-24]. Not on MRs, though
    embkd, never arrived in Crimea.

    ☼ Turner, Pte David, (1456), 17th L
    Abs 08-11 & 08-12; to Svc Trps 09-03-55 [55D-3-5]. Joined Regt 09-28-55 fr Brighton [55-3-5]. AA Charge. Rep to Scut Dep
    01-19; Inv fr Scut 02-01-56 [56-1-5]. Not on MRs though served in Crimea.

    ☼ Turner, Pte Henry, (1299), 17th L (p300)
    Bn in Surrey [56-4-24]. Enl 08-23-54 in Brighton at age 18 [54D-3-7]. Prior Occ: Grocer [56-4-24]. AWOL 03-03 to
    03-14-55; Mil Conf 03-20 to 03-30-55 [55D-1-5]. To Svc Trps 05-28-55 [55D-2-5]. Joined Regt 06-20-55 [55-2-5]. AA Charge.
    To Scut Dep 07-09-55; inv 07-31-55 fr Scut to England [55-3-5]. Inv 12-15-56 at Dublin [56-4-24]. Medal [507] w/ S [518] Clasp.

    By 1871, your John Turner would have been 50 years old. The life expectancy was much less at that time, and many soldiers were old before their time due to hard living conditions, hard work, and insufficient diet . . . so a Chelsea pensioner at 50 would not at all be surprising.

    For future reference, if you want to know if a man is generally accepted to have charged in the Light Brigade, you can download a PDF file at my website
    (lawrencecrider.com) of the known chargers to date, and print out a hard copy for ready reference.

    Cheers,

    Lawrence W. Crider
    Author, In Search of the Light Brigade
    Editor, The War Correspondent: the journal of the Crimean War Research Society
    %0ps 09-03-55 [55D-3-5]. Joined Regt 09-28-55 fr Brighton [55-3-5]. AA Charge. Rep to Scut Dep
    01-19; Inv fr Scut 02-01-56 [56-1-5]. Not on MRs though served in Crimea.

    ☼ Turner, Pte Henry, (1299), 17th L (p300)
    Bn in Surrey [56-4-24]. Enl 08-23-54 in Brighton at age 18 [54D-3-7]. Prior Occ: Grocer [56-4-24]. AWOL 03-03 to
    03-14-55; Mil Conf 03-20 to 03-30-55 [55D-1-5]. To Svc Trps 05-28-55 [55D-2-5]. Joined Regt 06-20-55 [55-2-5]. AA Charge.
    To Scut Dep 07-09-55; inv 07-31-55 fr Scut to England [55-3-5]. Inv 12-15-56 at Dublin [56-4-24]. Medal [507] w/ S [518] Clasp.

    By 1871, your John Turner would have been 50 years old. The life expectancy was much less at that time, and many soldiers were old before their time due to hard living conditions, hard work, and insufficient diet . . . so a Chelsea pensioner at 50 would not at all be surprising.

    For future reference, if you want to know if a man is generally accepted to have charged in the Light Brigade, you can download a PDF file at my website
    (lawrencecrider.com) of the known chargers to date, and print out a hard copy for ready reference.

    Cheers,

    Lawrence W. Crider
    Author, In Search of the Light Brigade
    Editor, The War Correspondent: the journal of the Crimean War Research Society

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