AGATE Family of Warnham/Horsham Sussex

[MC Evans]

Hi Christina

Thank you so much for your reply. I was so excited with your information on what would be my great grandmother, Isabella.

The address listed above matches one on an old record I have, I however didn't have her date of birth and am very encouraged with this new information.

Myself and my siblings have been trying to find a birth certificate for my grandfather for many years, unsuccessfully. He supposedly was born in Manchester, England and then moved to South Africa and served in the South African Army in the 2nd World War. He was married in England before coming to South Africa. He divorced and his second marriage was to my grandmother. We have no record or information on his father.

Can you offer any other suggestions on how I could move forward?

Many thanks
Marie-Claire

[christanel]

There are no births on FreeBMD for a Douglas C Agate anywhere from 1837 on. There is one for Douglas with the middle initial R, mother's maiden name Wray but it is in Edmonton in December 1/4 1920. He died in 1975.
There is another death in 1984 which says this Douglas was born 6 January 1908 but his birth is not showing on FreeBMD so may have been born in Scotland or overseas.

Where did you get the information that Isabella Agates address was given as Hove, Sussex at the time of Douglas' birth? Do you have the name of his first wife, do you have either of his marriage certificates? If so is there a father recorded on there?

Christina

[christanel]

Just found the image 0n familysearch.org, of Douglas C's marriage to Blanche Hannah Hansel 18 May 1946 in Durban Natal. He a divorcee age 30 and born Manchester. Unfortunately no record of parents required so no joy there.
Christina

[MC Evans]

Morning Christina,

Thank you for all your help, I really appreciate it as I am new to this and not very experienced so don't find what I am looking for easily.

The address of Isabella you gave me is the same as the one on Douglas's army records that he provided as next of kin. So the address would have been over the period of the 2nd World War. He came out to South Africa and served in the South African Army. I have all the army records but no birth certificate attached and on all records he states in was born in Manchester, England. We believe the name of his first wife to be Barbra or Barbara but that's the only information we have. My gran was Blanche in the picture you speak of, she was very emotionally damaged from her relationship with Douglas and would never talk about him and hence why we have so little information. We have always assumed he was emotionally damaged from the war and was an alcoholic. The interest for myself and my siblings is that we potentially have a wider family through Isabella that we know nothing about together with wanting to apply for a British passport and needing a grandparent that was born in the UK. Both my siblings currently live in the UK but have had to gain entry through their wives passports.

I have the marriage certificate for my gran and Douglas but there is nothing about his parents on the certificate. There is an indentity number on his death certificate (he died at 48 years old so I never meet him)but we can seem to connect it to anything. It is 245/639269.W.

Any help you can give me would be great.

Many thanks
Marie-Claire

[christanel]

Hi
On your grandfather's army records does it give an exact date of birth, that is not just the year but the day and month? It may help find him if he used a different name or his birth registered under a different name (either his first names or his surname.
Christina

[MC Evans]

Hi

That's the strange thing is that on the marriage certificate, death certificate and army records his listed date of birth is the same, 15/04/1916. It also states the same place of origin and birth as Manchester, England and name as Douglas Charles Agate.

I have also wondered about the fact that given the date he would have been born during the world war. It would be helpful to do further searches for his mother but I don't know what her maiden name was.

[christanel]

I have been doing searches for both Isabella and Douglas using all sorts of combinations of their names and just using first names etc and still no joy. I can't find a marriage of an Isabella to an Agate so then thought she may have only been pretending to be a widow but there is no birth of an Isabella Agate at all. There is only one birth of an Isabella in Sussex in 1887 and that is in the June 1/4 so too early for a Sept birth and anyway I followed her through the censuses and ruled her out.
Using the birth date you have given, Douglas' birth had to be registered within a 6 week period so the second 1/4 of 1916 which includes April/May/June but the only Agate is an Alice M Agate in Hammersmith.
Using just Douglas C with no surname and all counties gives 25 results. Just using Douglas C no surname and the county Lancashire gives 3 results 2 of which are in the Chorlton registration district which is in the Manchester area. One is Douglas C Nix mother's maiden name Cardy and the other is Douglas C Norris mmn Johnson.
The trouble is we have to make so many assumptions. We do not know if Douglas was registered under any of the names he used in S. Africa although if he was trying to cover up who he was why say he was a widower at his second marriage.
We do not know if Isabella was using her correct birth name(s) or whether she was ever married to an Agate. If she lived in Hove and married why did she go to Manchester to have the baby? Was her husband away at war and her husband was not the baby's father? Or was Isabella actually his adoptive mother and Douglas C was the child of another woman we have not yet found who was either unmarried or having a baby to a man other than her husband? Was Dougls C registered under another name(s) entirely and then on being 'adopted' had his name changed to Douglas C Agate? If there was an adoption then it was an informal one between friends/family or an individual who facilitated these arrangements because formal adoption did not start until 1927.
It intrigues me that he would say he was a widower on his second marriage certificate if he was previously married in England when he was now marrying a woman in S. Africa. Could his first marriage have been in S.Africa and Blanche knew about it so he had to declare it?

Christina

[christanel]

What is Douglas' date of attestation into the Army in S.Africa? I am trying to work out when he first went there by looking for a shipping record.
He is not in the 1939 register in his name or another surname as there are only 4 Douglas' with that birth date and I can account for them.
Christina

[christanel]

Ok I have just woken up to the fact that if Isabella Agate had the baby in Manchester was she actually living there. It was only on Douglas' attestation papers for S.Africa WW11 that his mother's address is given. By the way was her name written as Mrs. Isabella Agate or without the Mrs. Not that that means anything really because people do tell fibs. For instance Isabella's birth date on the 1939 register could well be out a couple of years or so although I do search a date with a +/- a couple of years or even 5 or 10 sometimes.
Your problem may be one where doing a DNA test could go toward a resolution.
Another thing that is bugging me is I can't find a death for Isabella or a remarriage. There is a death for an Isabella Louisa E Algate in 1986 but it gives her birthday as 30 April 1906 which would make her too young to have a baby in 1916.

Christina

[MC Evans]

Morning Christina

So I have just drawn up a timeline so I can more clear in my head and try and piece things together more clearly.

According to the documents I have being the army records:

1916 born in Manchester, England

1933 Montpeliar college certificate issued moves to Imperial Service College (renamed Haileybury)

1935 Certificate senior Haileybury College

1935 Further education stated as Woolworths Ltd London England

1935 - 1938 Assistant Manager Woolworths Ltd Cape Town

1939 -1940 Clerk and Traveller

1940 joined to war (interestingly he states himself as single on his army records )

1946 - Released from service

1946 Married Blanche (marriage certificates states he was a divorcess but when did he get married as army enrollment records state he was single so must have been during the war. Then would have had first marriage in South Africa so there must be a divorce record somewhere surely?)

1965 Died South Africa

All your points above are so valid this is the same questions I have regarding his birth. The strange connection though is the birth date of Isabella of 1887 matches the address of the person given as his mothers address in his army enrolment records. I also have a passenger records of a ship leaving Southhampton on 8/7/1948 with a Mr I.R Agate (aged 32),Mrs Agate (aged 32) and an infant. He would have been 32 years old at that date but would have been married to Blanche and didn't have my father until 1955 so don't know what relation of his that was that was coming out to South Africa. My mother says he did have a sister but we don't know what her name was.

Based on the above timeline he must have left for South Africa in 1935 in order to start his job at Woolworths Cape Town.