Likelihood of first name differing in b and d

Hi again,

So I think I have the correct birth record for my great-grandmother, though I have not bought the birth record, yet! I have a vague idea of when she died, and she definitely would have died in Bootle (the district would have been West Derby I imagine).

She died at home of TB, and my mum remembered her father saying she died in her thirties, but the only record I found that fit that was not correct (I bought it a few years back). I think she misheard, or misremembered it, and it was that she died in THE thirties, not HER thirties. I found one death record which matches this date, but the name is transcribed as Annie, but her suspected birth record it's transcribed as Ann. My grandfather would refer to her as Ann, but in the census records she's Annie - apart from the 1911 where she's Anne. In my great-grandfather's obituary, she was mentioned as Annie, and her name was Annie in her marriage certificate. My aunt is called Ann, and I think my grandfather named her after his mother. He always referred to his mother as Ann.

I am quite certain that the census records are correct. Matching addresses between different family members, and was able to find my grandfather's cousin who he was close to - I was able to get a photo of him from a relative of his wife after I found his records, and we were able to cross reference our knowledge of his life.

In the census records, Annie (Ann) Roberts states she was born in Caeathro, near Carnarvon. This matches the census records I have for her family, and the most suited birth record I have found is:
Ann Roberts, 1884, D Quarter, CARNARVON, Volume 11B Page 422.

The most likely death record is:
Annie Parry, 1933, D Quarter, WEST DERBY, Volume 08B Page 515.

There's another element concerning the address at the time. At some point my great-grandfather would have moved house (this may have been in 1933). He moved from 16 Southey Street, in Bootle, to 13 Wentworth Street (where his mother lived until she died early 1933). I can't find it on the map anymore, so not sure what district it would have come under if he moved with my great-grandmother before she died. It was in Liverpool somewhere. This was the address he lived at when he died.

I'm certain the birth record is correct, but what's the likelihood that the death record has a different name to the birth one?

Kind regards,

Karl

Hi Karl,

Searching the online indexes on the GRO's own website shows that the mother's maiden name for that Ann Robert's birth registration is Ellis. Does that fit with the rest of your research into the family?

I then lost the plot regarding

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There's another element concerning the address at the time. At some point my great-grandfather would have moved house (this may have been in 1933). He moved from 16 Southey Street, in Bootle, to 13 Wentworth Street (where his mother lived until she died early 1933). I can't find it on the map anymore, so not sure what district it would have come under if he moved with my great-grandmother before she died. It was in Liverpool somewhere. This was the address he lived at when he died.

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It's much easier to follow something if we have names as well as the relationship(s). You talk about your great-grandfather and his mother, but then say 'my great grandmother'. So I'm not sure if you've got generations confused, or if it's just me being dim. :smile5:
Looking on FMP for Wentworth Street in the 1939 Register, there's one in Bolton and one in Liverpool, as well as a Wentworh (sic) Street in Bolton because of a transcription error.

Regarding the registration district for the death, remember that the difference between registration districts in as small as a house, (You often hear about county boundaries going throuugh people's gardens.) So it's possible that Ann/Annie lived in one district but (especially if she died in hospital) that she died in another.

Pam

To add to Pam’s message, people were often registered by the name the family knew them by. It might be something as simple as Ann/Annie or James/Jim or their middle names. Sometimes people only knew a relative as “mum” or “Grandfather” and didn’t want to admit that they didn’t know the names...

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Originally Posted by toaster

I'm certain the birth record is correct, but what's the likelihood that the death record has a different name to the birth one?

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The answer to your question is: VERY LIKELY.
As Lesley said, the details in the death record came only from the person registering it (Birth certs etc did not have to be produced).

I'm currently photographing my local cemetery and uploading the graves for descendants to find. Using the Burial Register, freebmd & GRO, I'm able to add some info.
Some are buried with COMPLETELY DIFFERENT forenames, others with variations.
Latest example:
Birth: Mary Elizabeth
Marriage: Mary
Death: Mary
Gravestone: Elizabeth Mary
but there are many much odder!

Jane

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Originally Posted by Pam Downes

Hi Karl,

Searching the online indexes on the GRO's own website shows that the mother's maiden name for that Ann Robert's birth registration is Ellis. Does that fit with the rest of your research into the family?

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Hi Pam,

Yes, the records suggest her mother was Ellen Ellis, and her father Robert Roberts (Always makes me chuckle).

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Originally Posted by Pam Downes

I then lost the plot regarding

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Yes, sorry for that, my great-grandfather's mother (my g-g-grandmother, Mary Ellen Parry nee Hughes) died in 1933 at the address in Wentworth street, and at some point after that, he moved to that address - he lived there with his widowed sister Mary Elizabeth Clark nee Parry in 1939. If his wife, Ann/ie Parry died in the same year, I'm not sure if it would have been at the same address they had been living at previously, or at the one in Wentworth Street. I imagine she would have been too ill to move there. I've been trying to narrow down the results in the GRO index search by using the West Derby district, but was not certain if that address would have come under that district.

I don't think she died at hospital. As far as I've heard, she was bedridden at home at the time.

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Originally Posted by Pam Downes

Regarding the registration district for the death, remember that the difference between registration districts in as small as a house, (You often hear about county boundaries going throuugh people's gardens.) So it's possible that Ann/Annie lived in one district but (especially if she died in hospital) that she died in another.

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I had no idea the registration districts were that strict, but I guess it makes sense!

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Originally Posted by Lesley Robertson

To add to Pam’s message, people were often registered by the name the family knew them by. It might be something as simple as Ann/Annie or James/Jim or their middle names. Sometimes people only knew a relative as “mum” or “Grandfather” and didn’t want to admit that they didn’t know the names...

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Yes, I had considered this too. I imagine everyone called her Annie, but it was more of a nickname than anything else.

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Originally Posted by fullscott

The answer to your question is: VERY LIKELY.
As Lesley said, the details in the death record came only from the person registering it (Birth certs etc did not have to be produced).

I'm currently photographing my local cemetery and uploading the graves for descendants to find. Using the Burial Register, freebmd & GRO, I'm able to add some info.
Some are buried with COMPLETELY DIFFERENT forenames, others with variations.
Latest example:
Birth: Mary Elizabeth
Marriage: Mary
Death: Mary
Gravestone: Elizabeth Mary
but there are many much odder!

Jane

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I have a feeling that perhaps one of his family registered the death for him, so I guess they may not have known her by her birthname, and just gave the name they knew her by.

My grandfather’s oldest brother registered their elderly father’s death. Scottish death certificates ask for the name of any spouse,including female maiden names. Their mother died when the men were in their teens, and he made up both fore and middle names for her. If my guncle hadn’t been so distinctive (head gamekeeper at a castle) I might never have found the registration - my surname is one of the 10 most common in Scotland and I rely on maiden names to make couples stand out from the crowd!

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Originally Posted by Lesley Robertson

My grandfather’s oldest brother registered their elderly father’s death. Scottish death certificates ask for the name of any spouse,including female maiden names. Their mother died when the men were in their teens, and he made up both fore and middle names for her. If my guncle hadn’t been so distinctive (head gamekeeper at a castle) I might never have found the registration - my surname is one of the 10 most common in Scotland and I rely on maiden names to make couples stand out from the crowd!

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I lived in Scotland for a while, and met a fair few people with the Robertson surname!

I suppose in that situation, filling out documents is one of the last things you want to do, and can imagine it must have been reasonably commonplace to make up details when you were not sure. It's great to hear you were able to find the records in the end!

It's a similar situation here, with Parry and Roberts being very common surnames in Wales and Liverpool. I have been lucky with the Roberts side, partly because of the addresses, and different family members living together at different periods. Also, once I made the connection with the addresses, I found that my great-grandmother had a brother called Eleazer Owen Roberts (such an unusual first name), and I was able to make all kinds of connections using the name as a kind of guide. He was named after one of his uncles (which helped me find the records for his mother's side, Ellen Ellis, and her family). His sister also named one of her children Eleazer, and that helped me find my grandfather's cousin/best friend in the records. He was also one of the witnesses in a marriage, which helped confirm the marriage.

The Parry side is still quite difficult to research, but once I got the marriage certificate, the occupation of his father was the key to finding most of the records I have, plus the addresses. He was a carter. Though, it's very slow going beyond his parents. Anglesey is difficult... The paternal line right now is John Parry - John Henry Parry - Owen Parry - John Parry - Owen Parry. I'm half expecting a John Owens next!

Side by side maps
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side...&right=BingHyb

Wentworth Street runs east off Heyworth St. Place cursor over old map to see location on modern map.

Is this the family?

Liverpool Echo, 23 Oct 1943
DEATHS
PARRY- On Oct 21, in hospital, Henry Thomas (Harry), son of the late Owen and Mary Parry, at Kirkdale. Internment from his sister's residence, 13 Wentworth Street, at Anfield Cemetery, on Monday next, 2pm.