Baptism opinions please

[paulr]

Hello

I was wondering if anyone knew the likely out come of the following.

If someone was Baptised in 1855 in the Local Parish Church (Stansted Kent) and at that time the father was not disclosed or not listed.

If subsequently, the father came forward and married the mother (Different Parish) and then the child from the Baptism subsequently got married in the same church she was Baptised. (Stansted Kent)

Do you think that the Clergy would insist that the original details from the Baptism were recorded on the childs marriage certificate, or would they accept the fact that at a later date the father was disclosed?

The reason I ask is I have a relative Mary Goad Baptised 1855.
Father not listed.(IGI/LDS) She was probably a twin.

ABT 6 months after the birth the mother Ann Goad marries Amos Reeves Possibly the father (In Bethnal Green).

Mary Goad now calls herself Mary Reeves and lives with the family for 1861/1871/1881 Census. (As does her twin Louisa until she dies early)

Mary Reeves/Goad has a child out of wedlock and she is called Mary Reeves on the childs birth cert.

Mary (Reeves, Goad) Gunner has a child after her marriage to a Thomas Gunner and is listed on the childs birth cert as Formerly Mary Reeves.

However...

On the marriage entry for Mary Reeves marriage to Thomas Gunner she is listed as Mary Goad (Her baptism name)

I know it would be conjecture, but I am interested to know if there was a rule as this may have prevented a retrospective stating of Amos Reeves as the father after his marriage to Mary Goad's mother Ann and this would maybe help me to decide if Amos Reeves is Mary's father or not all things considered.

Hope this all makes sense!

Many thanks

Paul

[jeeb]

Hi Paul,
There is no law in Great Britian ruling by what name anybody is known by, this includes surnames. I doubt whether the church would insist on a marriage name being the same as the baptismal name. If Mary changes her name to Reeves it is likely Amos was her father. Does it state daughter on the subsequent censuses? To marry in a Cof E church one must be baptised so it may be possible that is why Mary uses her name of Goad to marry. Remember this was Victorian England and a girl giving birth to an illegitamate child was not so acceptable as it is perhaps today. She may have also been trying to hide her shame!

Cheers Jeremy.

[Mythology]

"On the marriage entry for Mary Reeves marriage to Thomas Gunner she is listed as Mary Goad (Her baptism name)"

What goes on a marriage record is whatever the person said.

If Mary, having grown up as Reeves, has reverted to using the name Goad for her marriage, then, whatever she says elsewhere, her mother hasn't pulled the wool over her eyes - Mary knows she wasn't born Reeves.

Get the marriage cert and see who *she* says her father is - as she evidently knows the score, she's likely to be telling the truth. So, while it's impossible to ever actually prove these sort of things, if she says father is Amos Reeves, it's a fair bet that he was, if there's a different name, you'll find out who it is, and if it's blank then she genuinely doesn't know.

[paulr]

Hello Jeremy

Yes she is listed as daughter on all of the Census and Amos is the head.

Goad only came to light when I found what had to be the entry for the marriage to Thomas James Gunner I was seeking.

I had to scratch my head for a while as I thought maybe he married twice but it all seemed to fit to well...on the Parish reg entry it says Father Unknown for Mary Goad.

Then the penny dropped...no birth on FreeBMD for Mary Reeves or Goad, but a baptism from IGI/LDS for Mary Goad and that is how I found her and no subsequent Census entries etc...then found a marraige between an Amor (sic) Reeves and Ann Goad. Ann was listed as mother on the IGI/LDS entry for Mary and Stansted is the area where the marriage occured.

Hello Mythology

Thanks and yes I will get it....I have a feeling it will be blank on the fathers section for Mary (I have had a few of these types lately!)

It would be very neat if it all fitted as I expected it to up until recently. Mary was a Reeves and she was Amos daughter (The Census says so ;o).

Its just I find it hard to believe that someone would Marry a lady who 6 months earlier had had twins if you were not the father (Which is what Amos appeared to have done) Maybe at the time of birth they didnt want Amos involved. The marriage occured in Bethnal Green far away from any known area for these families...

Still if I cant prove Amos is the father then thats how it goes I suppose.

Cheers

Paul

[arthurk]

Then the penny dropped...no birth on FreeBMD for Mary Reeves or Goad, but a baptism from IGI/LDS for Mary Goad and that is how I found her and no subsequent Census entries etc...

I gather from this that you don't have Mary's birth certificate, which may or may not name her father. However, bear in mind that FreeBMD, good though it is, is not the be-all and end-all of finding a registration. For a start, it's a transcription of the GRO indexes, but it's not yet complete, and there are many entries that simply haven't been transcribed yet. The full indexes can be found at the Family Records Centre in London, in a number of larger UK libraries, or online at various pay-per-view sites.

Secondly, the GRO indexes are themselves copies of returns sent in by local registrars, who keep their own BMD indexes. Many have found that events which were registered correctly are missing from the GRO indexes, or that the names have been garbled in the copying process. So if the GRO indexes don't come up with anything, an enquiry to the local registrar would be a good move. (Or you could do this first anyway - if there is any doubt about the entry (e.g. exact date or, as in this case, the surname) they will search a 5 year period and refund the full fee if unsuccessful.)

Good luck,
Arthur

[paulr]

Many thanks Arthur

EDITED

I have the GRO index for the wedding and will order as soon as I can....
I am planning a trip to S.O.G and I understand they have a GRO index there so will check the Mary Goad birth then.
I have ordered a bit to many this month already ;o)
Just wanted opinions before I ordered as to why the Goad surname suddenly appears in the parish record and why the father is blank.
Amos may well have not been Mary's natural father but he was her "Father" from 6 months after her birth in 1855 right up to and after her marriage.
I think the reason Goad appears is due to her being Baptised in the same Parish she married in and they were "Going by the book" also it may have been an example to the "Wayward" of the parish LOL.
Mary def called herself Reeves at this time without a doubt, so we will see if the birth certificate elightens!

Cheers

Paul