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Palma
02-01-2020, 10:58 AM
Trying to find Ann Howell, from 1851 census Merthyr Tydfil age 40 yrs listed with husband David Evans 38 yrs and son John (7 yrs b Llanelly )birth place Listed Aberstruth Monmouth. Is Aberstruth a parish ,I have found a Ann Howell Rockfield Monmouth 15th Sept 1811, is this part of Aberstruth.Having trouble finding her birth and marriage to David Evans. Any help appreciated.

Megan Roberts
02-01-2020, 11:31 AM
The short answer is that there is no such place, as far as I know.

Can you give us the census references so that we can have a look at the original and see if we can come up with something else?

Genuki, have a gazeteer that lets you search for places contain parts of words, and if you enter "Abers" and Monmouthshire, you only get 1 hit - "Abersychan"
https://www.genuki.org.uk/gazetteer?place=abers&county=134&search_type=1&display_type=1&type=map

maesglas/ssclub
02-01-2020, 11:45 AM
Hi Palma, I think this is the birth record for John Evans, the Mother maiden name is Howells


Birth Record for John Evans
in the District of Abergavenny
Name John Evans
District Abergavenny, Monmouthshire
Page 58
Volume 26
Registered October - December 1846

Aberstruth, Rockfield, Abergavenny are all within the Monmouthshire area, I will look for a possible marriage of his parents. Robert

Palma
02-01-2020, 11:47 AM
Wow that was quick, ref no bottom censusHO 107/2458 page 27 Merthyr Tydfil. David,Ann.John Evans. I got Ann’s maiden name (Howell)off death notice of son John died 7th October 1886 Charters Towers Qld. Australia. John Married Catherine Davies Pontypridd 1867 ,Johns age 23 yrs and father listed David . On 1871 Census Glamorgan Johns birth place listed Llanelly. Tks been going backwards but hit brick wall trying find births of family and wedding of David and Ann.By the way Happy New Year Palma

maesglas/ssclub
02-01-2020, 11:49 AM
Hi again Palma, I think this is the Marriage of Ann Howells and David Evans.


Marriage Record for John Evans
in the District of Abergavenny
Name John Evans
District Abergavenny, Monmouthshire
Spouse Ann Howells
Page 0025
Volume 26
Registered January - March 1843

Robert

Palma
02-01-2020, 11:50 AM
Tks Johns birth listedLlanelly on 1871 census Glamorgan with wife Catherine and children. Age corresponds with marriage certificate 1867 Pontypridd .

Palma
02-01-2020, 11:51 AM
Robert d you mean David Evans/Ann Howell

Pam Downes
02-01-2020, 12:02 PM
I was going to say that I'm no expert on Wales, but we have a couple of people who are (thinking of Megan) - and then Megan sort-of let me down. :smile5:
It's true there is no Aberstruth, but there is an Aberystruth.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/Aberystruth

Palma - bookmark this https://www.genuki.org.uk/big
Then click on the relevant country, and then county, as required.
This link is more informative for English places, but it will still show you Welsh parishes and their neighbours. https://www.familysearch.org/mapp/

After a lot of searching I found that the census reference is HO107/2458 folio 36 page 27.
As I said, I'm no expert on Welsh places, but Ann's birthplace to me looks like Aberystwyth. But that isn't in Monmouthshire, so did the census enumerator mistranscribe Aberystruth, or did he make a mistake with Monmouthshire?
He sems to have made a mistake with John's birth county because Llanelly is in Carmarthenshire yet he's written Brecon.

Palma - if you can't find a marriage between David Evans and Ann Howell, how do you know that was Ann's name at the time of marriage?
On FreeBMD there is a marriage in December quarter 1838 with a David Evans and an Ann Howell on the same page, Abergavenny registration district. But the PR on FMP confirms that they married different people.
David married Mary Owens, and Ann married William Phillips, ironically both marriages were in Aberystruth. Ann's age was given as 'minor', meaning under 21, which doesn't fir the age of the 40 year-old in the 1851 census.

Pam
who, as usual, was slowly typing and finding extra details while everyone else was quickly typing

maesglas/ssclub
02-01-2020, 12:03 PM
Hi Palma, yes I did mean David, but can see that this is a John, sorry for building your hope up, will have another look.

Robert

maesglas/ssclub
02-01-2020, 12:10 PM
Just found this one,

Marriage Record for David Evans
in the District of Abergavenny
Name David Evans
District Abergavenny, Monmouthshire
Spouse Ann Howells
Page 0037
Volume 26
Registered January - March 1848

Robert, and Pam Downes is right,but only on the spelling Aberstruth or Aberystruth is the same place, in Monmouthshire.

Pam Downes
02-01-2020, 12:17 PM
Hi again Palma, I think this is the Marriage of Ann Howells and David Evans.


Marriage Record for John Evans
in the District of Abergavenny
Name John Evans
District Abergavenny, Monmouthshire
Spouse Ann Howells
Page 0025
Volume 26
Registered January - March 1843

Robert
Go stand in the corner, Robert. :smile5:
We're looking for a David Evans, not a John (John is the son's name).
Plus those names only mean that they are on the same page(s) in the marriage register. There is no proof that they married each other.
The couples on that page number were John Evans and Mary Richards, David James and Ann Howells, David Harries and Sarah Prosser, Samuel Jones and Hannah Holmes, who were all married in Bedwelty. PR images on FMP.

Pam

Palma
02-01-2020, 12:19 PM
Hi , Llanelly in Breconshire just across border from Monmouthshire. there is another Llanelli which I think is the Carmenshire.

Squaredancer
02-01-2020, 12:26 PM
Hi , Llanelly in Breconshire just across border from Monmouthshire. there is another Llanelli which I think is the Carmenshire.

Llanelly is near Abergavenny. Llanelli is in Carmarthenshire (just a few miles from where I live) :yes:

Pam Downes
02-01-2020, 12:30 PM
Just found this one,

Marriage Record for David Evans
in the District of Abergavenny
Name David Evans
District Abergavenny, Monmouthshire
Spouse Ann Howells
Page 0037
Volume 26
Registered January - March 1848

Robert, and Pam Downes is right,but only on the spelling Aberstruth or Aberystruth is the same place, in Monmouthshire.
Think that's another one which might be wishful thinking. See post #11 for reason why.
Unfortunately I can't find those marriage in the CofE registers on FMP, so presumably they took place in either a non-confirmist church or the Register Office, and Palma would have to take a chance on ordering a certificate in one of the names.

However, you do get brownie points for knowing that Aberstruth and Aberystruth are the same place, so you can come out of the corner. :smile5:

Pam

Megan Roberts
02-01-2020, 1:42 PM
I was going to say that I'm no expert on Wales, but we have a couple of people who are (thinking of Megan) - and then Megan sort-of let me down. :smile5:
It's true there is no Aberstruth, but there is an Aberystruth.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/Aberystruth



Pam



I plead guilty Pam - I was rushing my answer this morning as I was rushing out the door, and now as they say more haste less speed, and I can repent in leisure! :whistling:

Pam Downes
02-01-2020, 2:03 PM
I plead guilty Pam - I was rushing my answer this morning as I was rushing out the door, and now as they say more haste less speed, and I can repent in leisure! :whistling:
Yeah, it's fatal to do things when you're going out. You either make a mistake or else try to be thorough and end up making yourself late!
It seems from Robert's post #10 that Aberstruth does exist, as it's another name for Aberystruth.
Though when you get Llanelli and Llanelly :crazy: coming in as well, I think I'm going back to my nice English counties. I'll leave Wales to its experts. :smile5:

Pam

Palma
03-01-2020, 8:00 AM
Tks Robert for time John was born 1844 Llanelly , noted on 1871 census Glamorgan Pontypridd with wife Catherine and children. also marriage certificate 1867 has age 23 yrs which corresponds with census age.wish there wasn’t so many Evans to check through.Paley

maesglas/ssclub
03-01-2020, 10:28 AM
Hi again Palma, there is this one, and on the GRO it is registered as Builth Union, which was the work house or poor union in Brecknockshire, no mothers Maiden name listed, these records could be held at the Gwent Records office in Ebbw Vale.

Birth Record for John Thomas Evans
in the District of Builth
Name John Thomas Evans
District Builth, Brecknockshire
Page 304
Volume 26
Registered April - June 1844

Robert

Palma
03-01-2020, 10:53 AM
Tks Robert but John records show Llanelly as Birth place. Parents David miner mother Ann in 1851 census age 7 yrs Merthyr Tydfil also Census 1871 Pontypridd Glamorgan place Birth Llanelly Brecon . Age 27. Married 1867 age 23 Glamorgan Catherine Davies All point to Llanelly Brecon as Birth place.more interested in finding David and Ann Howell Marriage so can get a certificate for fathers name to help in my search .Wales is so difficult with all the different counties and parish. I have been at this roadblock for years and I am learning enough to know there are two Llanelly and ne is now Llanelli.tks for your help appreciate the time you have given me.Palma

maesglas/ssclub
03-01-2020, 2:48 PM
Hi Palma, the work house I mentioned is in Brecknockshire, so is Brecon, I will try to find out how far apart they are.

Robert.

maesglas/ssclub
03-01-2020, 3:08 PM
Hi Palma, having read about the workhouse or Union as it was called, it was also a hospital like many other work or poor houses, it also states that many people were given help or relief as they called it, in there own homes,remember there was no such thing as DHSS or dole money if the husband was out of work.

Robert

Jomot1
03-01-2020, 7:05 PM
I'm no expert on Wales either, only the tiny bit my family came from, but if my Googling is right then a Llanelly birth would be registered in Crickhowell, and there is no John Evans mmn Howell/s for the relevant period, only a Thomas, Ann & Mary.

Unfortunately death certificates often carry incorrect information as, by definition, the information is second-hand. I think the Crickhowell registers are now held at Blaenau Gwent, although someone may correct me on this. It may therefore be worth asking them to do a search for an 1843/4 birth of a John Evans in Llanelly with the father David, a coal miner. If they find one then purchasing the certificate should reveal the correct maiden surname.

I did this when trying to a Davis/Davies in Glamorgan, and the search was successful (I didn't provide a mother's maiden name, or even her forename.

Beyond that, I'm out of ideas.

One thing to perhaps look out for though - I also have Howell/s in my tree, but from Pembroke Dock, and some births were registered with the mmn Hall instead of Howell.

Pam Downes
04-01-2020, 12:48 PM
The plot thickens and I've got a headache. :biggrin:

As Jomot1 says, Llanelly (Brec[k]onshire) is is Crickhowell registration district.
But then you've also got Llanelly Carmarthenhire in Llanelly registration district. Though Genuki has that Llanelly place name spelt Llanelli. (eeny meny miny mo, sit the baby ........)

Two other things to consider.
One is that not all births in the 1840s were registered.
Back in those days men often married widows/single women with young children, and then the children often grew up with the surname of their 'adopted' father.
So, (a) was John born John Howell to a single mother, and became John Evans when Ann married David?
Or (b) was Ann Ann Howell when she married a.n.other. Then gave birth to John, whose father died. Ann with a.n.other surname then married David.

I'm going for a long lie-down in very dark room. :smile5:

Pam