London without the wall

[Frazer]

Can anybody tell me what precise area this district covered in the early 19th century please? Such is the registration in the 1841 census.

[Mythology]

I can't tell you what *precise* area it refers to, because it is not a precise description in the first place. This is not the name of a parish, for instance - it is (through no fault of yours, of course!) an unhelpfully vague description.

"Without" in this sense, is simply the opposite of "within", i.e., outside.
"London" would (or, at least, should - I'm assuming that this came from an old record of some sort) refer to the *City* of London, not just the general area of "London" as we think of it these days.
It could, therefore, be any part of the City of London which is outside the City Wall, the area controlled by the Corporation of London (the "City") being larger than just the area within the actual City wall.
On the one hand, you could be looking at a parish on the eastern side, such as St Botolph, Aldgate - usually called St Botolph without Aldgate - and on the other hand you could be looking at a parish on the western side such as St Bride, Fleet Street.

[Lynda Cunningham]

Hi Frazer

I've looked at one of your previous postings and suspect you are interested
in the area around Sugar Loaf Court.
Here are a few links that may be of interest to you?

http://www.gendocs.demon.co.uk/lonstr_s.html
http://www.oldtowns.co.uk/Middlesex/london-pt1.htm
http://www.motco.com/map/

best wishes
Lynda

[Ken Boyce]

Part 1

If you go to the Stanford 1862 map online at www.motco.com and locate map sector (14,16) or (15,16) in the index (use Ctrl + f) you will find Sugar Loaf Court. Note that the online version has an incomplete Index

St Botolph was a saxon saint, born in Cornwall, who built a large monastery Icanhoh in Lincolnshire in 654. He was the English patron saint of travellers. Churches at City gates were often dedicated to St Botolph so that travelers could pray there before and after a journey. There were eight main gates in the old walled City of London and there were travellers churches situated next to four of them. Three survive today.

St Botolph Cripplegate (also known as St Botolph Cripplegate Without)

St Botolph Aldgate (also known as St Botolph Without Aldgate) - a meadival parish c1400 located outside of the old Ald city gate

St Botolph Bishopsgate (also known as St Botolph Bishopsgate Without) - built outside the city walls.

St Botolph Aldersgate (also known as St Botolph Aldersgate Without)

St Botolph Billingsgate - destroyed in the 1666 Fire of London

Altough the church may be sited within or without the City wall the parish may cover areas both within and without the City.

Other City gates were Moorgate, Ludgate, Newgate, Dowgate (River access as was Billingsgate), and St Johns Gate (a private gate to the Hospital)

[Ken Boyce]

Part 2

Some gates had more than one associated church such as Cripplegate

St Giles Cripplegate founded in 1090 and known as The Church of St Giles Without Cripplegate, meaning it was outside the Cripple Gate. “Cripple Gate” was a mediaeval corruption of the Old English “Crypel-Geat”, a low gate or a gate for creeping through. The common assumption was that the name had something to do with cripples. So when the church was built the saint that it was dedicated to was St Giles, the patron saint of cripples. Cripplegate became the name for the entire area around the gate. The part inside the gate was called Cripplegate Within and the part outside the gate was called Cripplegate Without. Cripplegate Without was originally little more than a swamp where city refuse was dumped. To give an idea of relative importance and population, ten or more churches were built in Cripplegate Within; St Giles' was regarded as sufficient on its own for Cripplegate Without. St Giles always remained the focal point for the Barbican area. St Giles' Church still has the parish registers showing the names of some of the people who died during the 1665 Great Plague. Almost eight thousand people died in the Barbican area, out of a total population of no more than eleven thousand. There were so many burials at St Giles that eventually the surface of the graveyard rose by two feet. Many of the dead were buried in plague pits dug at Crowder’s Well. During the 17th century, more than one hundred thousand people died in the parish.

[Ken Boyce]

Re my Stanford Map posting

I incorrectly assumed that because the two map segments are adjacent that Sugar Loaf Ct bridged the boundaries - this is not so there are two Sugar Loaf Ct not very far apart so you need to look at both sectors

Regards

[Ken Boyce]

Can anybody tell me what precise area this district covered in the early 19th century please? Such is the registration in the 1841 census.
The 1841 does not identfy the place of birth just in or out of county
Could the ref "London Without the Walls" be refering to a birth outside of the City and nowt to do with one of within without "gate" parishes

Regards

[Mythology]

"Registration" = the census definition, not the birthplace.

As I'm sure you know, Ken, the 1841 was done by the old Hundreds, not by the new Registration Districts.
HO107/719 to HO107/724 are "London, Within the Walls"
HO107/725 to HO107/728 are "London, Without the Walls"

If it was outside the City completely, it would be Ossulstone Hundred.

[Mythology]

Which makes me think ........

I don't have the 1841 at home, and none of my lot were in the City in 1841 so I've never had to look at that patch, but ....

In the enumerator's description at the front of that book, is there nothing such as the Parish or the Ward mentioned?
Either would narrow down the area considerably.

[Ken Boyce]

Out of curiosity I dusted off my London 1841 and discovered that there are four Sugar Loaf Courts listed in the City street index.

These are located at Dorset St (HO107/726 – 25), Leadenhall St (HO107/721 – 11), Garlick Hill (HO107/721/722 – 6/19) and Little College St (HO107/721 – 25)

Only the first is in the London Without the Walls Sub-district

[Ken Boyce]

Taken from the 1841 CD listing

London Without the Wall Sub-district HO107 725 to 729

HO107 725 = St Botolph Aldgate, St Botolph Without Bishopsgate

HO107 726 = St Brides, St Dunstan in the West, Serjents Inn, Fleet St

HO107 727 = St Giles Without Cripplegate

HO107 728 = St Sepulchre Without Newgate, Holy Trinity, White Friars

HO107 729 = The Inns and Temples, Fleet St

[Ken Boyce]

PS I omitted to say that the Dorset St Sugar Loaf Ct is in the Parish of St Brides

[Ken Boyce]

Having looked at the image for the 1841 entry I have been able to pinpoint the location of the relevant Sugar Loaf Ct

The ED front sheets are in a poor condition so I browsed the neighbourhood of the Enumerators entries and come up with a list of main streets in the area - Ludgate Hill, Little Bridge St, and New Bridge St

Going to the online Greenwood 1830 at Motco and locating the neighbourhood from the streets above (Sugar Loaf Ct is not listed in the index) puts the location at the SE corner of Farringdon and Fleet Streets, just west of St Brides Church and west of St Pauls Cath

The location is on the west side of the City so neither of the Stanford pair which are on the east side are correct.

Regards

[Mythology]

"at the SE corner of Farringdon and Fleet Streets, just west of St Brides Church ......"
If it's at the junction of Farringdon Street and Fleet Street, then it's east of St Bride, not west of it.

Other than that, yes - makes sense, Ken, it's the only one that fits the "without" description, isn't it?
So - we are looking at St Bride, Fleet Street, as the parish, and Farringdon Without as the ward.

[Ken Boyce]

oops!

You are correct - and to think that I used to bomb around London in my old 46 Morris 10 and had the pleasure of being towed on the night of the very first "Pink Zone" along with several hundred others

The scene was chaotic not a car in sight and what seemed like hundreds of people milling around in a daze. The Police had screwed up and had not kept a list of where the cars had been taken so they oblighed some of us poor lost souls by acting as a taxi service (no plastic credit in those days!), After a couple of fruitless journies by taxi to Highgate and think Holloway, I eventually hitched a ride in the back of a police car to Southwark to where they thought my car may had been towed The two hour early morning journey from North London to Southwark was memorable with a couple of diversions to attend to some problem or other on the way. What was really of significance was the fact that I had hitched aride with the dog squad and was put in the back with a very amorous German Shepherd. I think it was relaxing between bouts with the bad guys.

Regards

[Frazer]

You have sent me back to the drawing board! I had been working on the Stanford 1862 map which gave only two Sugar Loaf Courts, one 'within' near Leadenhall St. and one 'without'. The latter, off Swan St., between Minories and Mansel St. looked just right. In the Stanford road index there are 7 Dorset Streets, not one in that same area so that means that one new Sugar Loaf, Court, my former choice, came into being between 1841 and 1862 and three of the four (the Leadenhall one survived) disappeared, including the one you have found for me.
That one, no doubt the right one, must have been demolished when, as is visible on the 1862 map, the railway line was planned to go through the area from Holborn Viaduct to Farringdon Street Station, to be built on the site of the old Fleet Prison.
Thank you for putting me on the right track.
Ian

[AnnB]

I don't know if this will be of any interest to you, but at the British History Online site, taken from The Dictionary of London there are quite a few refs to various Sugar Loaf Courts http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.asp?pageno=19&pubid=3&start=s

Best wishes
Ann

[Frazer]

Thank you for the suggestion Ann. The number of Sugar Loaf Courts mentioned on that site is surprising. Several could have been candidates without the details Ken gleaned from the 1841 Census. The Dictionary of London siting is even more precise: "East out of Dorset St. to Bridewell Hospital." Perfect.
Regards,
Ian

[Ken Boyce]

Part 1
Hi Ian
Pinpointing old London addresses often requires the Bulldog mentality.

#1 rule – because it ain’t in the index don’t assume its gorn!
#2 rule – because there’s one listed don’t assume it’s the correct one!

In the case of JF’s domincile we know the general neighbourhood, Civil Parish and Reg Dist from the 1841 Census but not the exact location or the 1841 Ecclesiastical parish boundaries in the area, which for City locations can be somewhat complex.

My favourite period map for locating the nooks and crannies of old Metro-London is the very detailed 1799 Horwood – accessible online at Motco and is partially indexed. There are also a couple of very good publications on London Alleys including one published on an Archive Books CD.

The most accurate map that I know of for showing the London ecclesiastical parish boundaries is the 1892 Booth Map. However there were many changes to the London parishes in the 19C and it is not always obvious which ecclesiastical registers are relevant. The Webb Index does not list this Sugarloaf Ct

[Ken Boyce]

Part 2

It’s worth taking a look at the area in 1799. Locate St Brides Church in the Motco Horwood Index (Sugarloaf Ct is not listed) once at the church travel East (yes I’ve now got myself orientated) across New Bridge St and you will find yourself in the area that contained John Fraser’s abode that was enumerated in 1841.

Unfortunately the 1799 map is 42yrs too early thus allowing significant change prior to the Census as can be seen by comparing with the 1803 Hogwood (also indexed and online at Motco) and 1862 Stanford Maps. So we have got ourselves a blind spot of minus 40 to plus 20 years and no exact location shown on any of the three classic maps.

All the Metro-London Census between 1841 and 1901 have comprehensive
Street Indexes hardcopy compiled by the PRO (I don’t know of any way one can access copies except at LDS FHCs, possibly LMA and similar, or by purchase of certain Census Fiche or CDs). The Dorset St Sugarloaf Court is listed in the four census from1841 to 1871. From the ED front sheets of these four census it may be possible to isolate the position of the Court

As far as I can make the Booth Map puts the location just inside the St Bride parish boundary in 1899 but this would depend on what boundary changes may have occurred in the 19C and the effect of the Railway if any on the boundary

Hope this helps
Regards

[Ken Boyce]

Thank you for the suggestion Ann. The number of Sugar Loaf Courts mentioned on that site is surprising. Several could have been candidates without the details Ken gleaned from the 1841 Census. The Dictionary of London siting is even more precise: "East out of Dorset St. to Bridewell Hospital." Perfect.
Regards,
Ian

It may suprise you that scanning the 15 or so main online classical map and street indexes for Sugarloaf or Sugar Loaf Court returns 19 refs spread across London. (Some time ago I put together a utility which scans these online databases which contain listings dating from 1748 (Stow's Index) to 1918 (Harben's Index)

In addition to these 15 online sources there are also the hardcopy and CD sources such as Web, Dickinson, PRO Census Index and the LCC Listing (the latter on an Archive CD) Not to mention the great Post Office Street Listings especially the 1856 and 1901 also on CD

[Ken Boyce]

Having now reviewed all the refs for the Dorset St Sugarloaf Ct including the later census Indexes I have concluded that the location is not east of Bridge St as I had originally deduced from the 1841 Enumerator's route and neighbourhood but is more likely located in the area just south of St Brides Church and west of the hospital.

This would put it well inside the St Brides Parish boundary

Regards

[Frazer]

That sounds compatible with the Dictionary of London siting 'East out of Dorset Street to Bridewell Hospital'. Thank you for all that research Ken - most helpful and instructive.
Regards,
Ian