HMS Victory II & HMS Firequeen

[peter nicholl]

|help| I am trying to get some information on the above, but the time period is some 10 years before the start of WWI. I know that Victory II was a Shore Station and during WWI, I believe that it was located at Crystal Palace, but was it in Portsmouth in 1905? Also, has anyone any information on HMS Firequeen (or is it Fire Queen?) in 1904?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Researching Haselgrove and Vaughan in the Royal Navy

[keith9351]

Try this site

http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/18-1900/Index.html

Keith

[peter nicholl]

Thanks Keith, Your suggestion sorted out the Fire Queen, unfortunately I think that, where ever it was, Victory II was a Stone Frigate.

Peter

[keith9351]

If you haven't already seen this site it could be useful

http://1914-1918.org/

Search - Ships and Navies - Victory II Crystal Palace is mentioned but it seems to have been from 1914. Hopefully someone on that forum can help you.
Keith

[Terry Reeves]

Victory II was the Crystal Palace/Sydenham training depot for the Royal Naval Division from 1914 and in Naval parlance, was "paid off" on 21.3.19. It was also known as HMS Crystal Palace. It appears to have had no existance prior to 1914.

Source: Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy. Lt Commander B Warlow RN 1992 and 2000.

Terry Reeves

[Bart592]

Hi

Been trying to find out about HMS Fire Queen my Grandfather was on this ship 19th Nov 1904 to 31st March 1905 taken from his service record.

Maybe training ship in Portsmouth.

[Bart592]

Fire Queen, † 1882
Type: Special Service Vessel - Steam Yacht ;
Completed ‡ : Purchased 1882 ; Disposal date or year § : 1920
Disposal Details : Sold
BM: tons ; Displacement: 446 tons
Propulsion: Complement: 43
Machinery notes: 500 ND ; Speed ; 11 knots ;
Notes:
Apr 1886 Portsmouth
1890 Tender to Duke of Wellington, Portsmouth. Officer borne in Duke of Wellington.
26 Jun 1897 Present at the Naval Review at Spithead in celebration of the Diamond Jubilee.
1914 Portsmouth

[peter nicholl]

According to Paul Benyon's (brilliant) site, Fire Queen, or Firequeen, was a Special Service Vessel. A steam yacht of 446 tons with a complement of 43. She was purchased in 1882 and sold in 1920. My Great Uncle Charles Vaughan served on her from 17 February 1904 to 3 September 1904 and my Grand Father, Charles Haselgrove served on her from 19 February 1904 to 11 June 1904. On 1 February 1905 to 17 March 1905 she flew the Port Admiral's Flag. Some SSVs were used as spy ships, but I don't know if Firequeen was included.

HTH
Peter
Researching Haselgrove and Vaughan in Portsmouth.

PS Looks like we crossed paths.
Peter

[Geoffers]

It may be something you've considered already, but the National Maritime Museum has a very helpful reprographic department with a large collection of photos - there's a an online catalogue to their holdings. Copies aren't cheap, but having a photo of a ship on which an ancestor served gives a nice feeling.


Geoffers

[Gambrill]

I've just come across this thread .... very interesting, as I have studio photo of my grandfather in his naval uniform (Able Seaman, WW1). I'm guessing it was taken in 1914.

The headband reads "HMS Victory", not Victory II.
What should I make of that?

John

[Geoffers]

I've just come across this thread .... very interesting, as I have studio photo of my grandfather in his naval uniform (Able Seaman, WW1). I'm guessing it was taken in 1914.
The headband reads "HMS Victory", not Victory II.
What should I make of that?
HMS Victory was Nelson's flagship at Trafalgar. In 1914 she was still afloat in Portsmouth harbour (she's now in permanent dry dock). I believe that those in barracks and at the dockyard at Portsmouth were also nominally posted to Victory. My guess is that he was actually at one of the latter.

Geoffers

[peter nicholl]

It may be something you've considered already, but the National Maritime Museum has a very helpful reprographic department with a large collection of photos - there's a an online catalogue to their holdings. Copies aren't cheap, but having a photo of a ship on which an ancestor served gives a nice feeling.

GeoffersThanks Geoffers, Helpful as ever. I had thought about the NMM pictures, but like a Sydney/Emden replica medal I've seen, I'll have to wait for ERNIE to come up big time.

Peter

[Gambrill]

HMS Victory was Nelson's flagship at Trafalgar. In 1914 she was still afloat in Portsmouth harbour (she's now in permanent dry dock). I believe that those in barracks and at the dockyard at Portsmouth were also nominally posted to Victory. My guess is that he was actually at one of the latter.

Geoffers

Thanks for the info.
John

[Shaun]

Found this forum searching for information about HMS Victory II
Just received a copy of my gr gr uncles Royal Navy service record and he was stationed there twice from...
25 November 1894 - 25 June 1895 and 31 October 1896 - 28 January 1897.
During these stays he was promoted from a stoker to Leading Stoker to Chief Stoker and so I would guess that the Victory II was a land based training ship.

Now I'll go look for some more info.

[Nasherman]

Hi all,
I've just come across this forum while googling for VictoryII.
My Grandfather, James William Brady, served on Victory II several times:-
6 March 1910 - 25 April 1910,
5 June 1913 - 23 August 1913,
16 October 1914 - 25 July 1915,
17 October 1916 - 27 October 1916 and finally
1 April 1920 - 6 April 1920.
As some previous posts have said that HMS Crystal Palace didn't exist before 1914 does anyone know where exactly my Grandfather was stationed during these periods.
He went from Stoker II to Stoker I to Leading Stoker during his career.
Any help with this would be much appreciated.
Nasherman

[MarkJ]

Very interesting thread. I received some information about one of my own ancestors a few days ago which lists Victory ll as one of the places this person served. He too was a stoker.
Only for a few days - 17 to 22 October, 1919. That seems to contradict the information from Terry earlier in the thread about Victory ll being "paid off" on 21.3.19
Perhaps the establishment was being "run down" by that time?

Mark

[martin1]

hi everyone

picked up on this thread while searching for various ships my great, grandfather was on during his time in the navy.
his name was joah redverse peacock ( great isn't it)
he served on h.m.s.powerful 1916 (training ship?)
h.m.s.alsatian 1917 (dazzle camoflage ?)
h.m.s.victory I 1918 (land based ?)
h.m.s. blenheim 1919 (supply ship ?)
h.m.s.victory I 1919
h.m.s.victory II 1919 till 1923 when he left the navy having acheived rank of stoker I.
cant find much information on these ships (if they were ships) and any help would be much appreciated.

cheers

[doowmat]

I have a copy of my uncle Herbert Ernest WOODFORD's naval service record.
Born 21 Dec. 1875 at Freshwater - Occupation: Butcher.
He evidently signed up at Portsmouth as a stoker for 12 years starting 12 Oct. 1896.
He served on various ships until 16 May 1904.
The ships were Victory (II & III), Excellent, Duke of Wellington, Argonaut, Glory and Firequeen,in that order.
Any information on any or all would be welcme.

He is shown as "Joined R. F. R. Portsmouth B.894 - 17 May 1904 Discharged R. F. R. 16 May '09. Time expired."
What does the abbreviation stand for? - Was this some Naval Reserve - non-active? or a naval shore job perhaps?

[Terry Reeves]

Royal Fleet Reserve.

Terry Reeves

[John Patten]

It may be something you've considered already, but the National Maritime Museum has a very helpful reprographic department with a large collection of photos - there's a an online catalogue to their holdings. Copies aren't cheap, but having a photo of a ship on which an ancestor served gives a nice feeling.

Geoffers
I'm compil;ing a collage of my fathers naval history...........
Is it possible for me to obtain a photograph of HMS Victory 1 barracks as my father AB W ( Bill ) Patten was stationed at this base between on board ship commissions and was last stationed there in 1938. If this is possible perhaps you could forward an e-mail address so I can contact who ever direct.

[Geoffers]

I'm compil;ing a collage of my fathers naval history...........
Is it possible for me to obtain a photograph of HMS Victory 1 barracks
If there are no photos on the web, I suggest trying either the National Maritime Museum as mentioned, or the RN museum at Portsmouth.

Geoffers

[MaryO]

Greetings, all.

I have obtained a copy of what I think is my grandfather's Royal Navy record. He is listed as having served aboard the Victory II at several different times during World War I. I don't understand many of the abbreviations, and can't make out whether he was a scoundrel or a well-behaved sailor. ;-)

There are entries under "If discharged, whither and for what cause" such as "1 day, C. P."; "6 days, C.P."; and "8 ds Cells".

If anyone could tell me what these mean, I would be very grateful.

Best regards,

Mary O'Shaughnessy

[Ron Munro]

Hi all. As a newcomer, I hope this makes sense and is of help to you. Reading the messages about HMS Victory ll, it would seem that she was a Shore-based Training Establishment. My father's service record shows that he too was a stoker and between spells on various sea-going ships (1910-1922) he returned for short periods to Victory ll. He may have known some of your ancestors, as he served on Renown (Nov 1910-Feb1911); Skirmisher (Mar1911-Oct1911); Weymouth(Nov1911-June1913); Seahorse(Apr1914-May1914); Mastiff(Jan1915-Mar1917); Attentive(Mar1917-May1918); Adamant(Nov1918-Nov1919); Osborne(Dec1919-Apr1921). His final posting was on Victory ll from Apr 1921-Oct 1922. In the comments column of his record against this entry is 'Shore T/E' Below that 'Joined RFR 02 May 1923'
Interesting to learn that Victory ll might have been based at Crystal Palace, and that all your ancestors were stokers. Didn't the Crystal Palace burn down in 1936?

[Ron Munro]

CP = confined to port
8 ds= 8 days
Cells= in clink...

[Mike_E]

Hi,

My Grand Father was also in the Navy, His Name, John Oswald Galloway. His service records show Victory II still in operation in 1928.

I have his service records.
Victory 1913 - 14
Birmingham 1914 - 1915
Victory II -1915 - 16
Royal Sovereign 1916 -1921

In 1921
Courageous
Victory III
Victory II
Courageous

In 1922
Victory II
Calcutta

In 1923
Victory II
Vernon?? difficult to read this entry

1924
Waymouth
Victory II

1925
Rapid?? and Skate?? also difficult to read
Victory II

1926
Firgard ?
Victiry II
Lupin

Finally left in 1928, last posting being Victory II. His record shows he did time for being Drunk, 10 days Cells. The family story is, Ossie was always one for a few Ales, well at least his service record shows this.

Rgds
Mike

[vickimattin]

I've been trying to trace someone who went into the Navy/Merchant Navy. All I have is his full name, date of birth,date of death.I have a photo of him in his uniform, which I think says "HMS VICTORY" which is probably the barracks he was in. He was a stoker, and his daughter's birth was registered in Portsmouth.(1931) There are no records of the birth or a marriage for him.Also, the mothers name was missing so it makes it harder to find a marriage certificate.
His details are as followed if anyone can help:
PERCY JAMES GREGORY MOURANT
BORN 14TH MAY 1905, ST MARTINS,JERSEY
MARRIED IN CHICHESTER 1937
DIED 1976,HAMPSHIRE
Where do I start to finding his service history.
Many thanks to anyone who can help

Vicki:)

[Geoffers]

There are no records of the birth or a marriage for him.His details are as followed if anyone can help:
PERCY JAMES GREGORY MOURANT
MARRIED IN CHICHESTER 1937


The GRO index has his marriage:

March Quarter 1937
MOURANT, Percy J G
married to SHOEBRIDGE
Chichester RD, Vol 2b Page 798

You can order a copy of this certificate direct from the GRO

TNA's catalogue has records relating to Merchant Seamen from BT372 index on its catalogue.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp
Try entering 'MOURANT' in the word or phrase field and in the department or seires code, enter BT372

TNA's research guides give help on where to look for particular records
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp
scroll down to 'M' and look under 'Merchant Seamen' or 'R' and look under Royal Navy.

For RN service records try
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.00h007001

Geoffers

[Ray Lee]

My wifes father was a stoker in the merchant navy and I have seen a photo of him with a HMS Victory Cap on, he looks around 19 this would have been in 1917, 1918, how do I find out if he served on the Victory - looking at the threads Victory was a shore based entity.
Any ideas of where I need to look for more information. By the way his name was Fred Chester|help|

[Masha]

I have just discovered my Grandfather's record for Crystal Palace - shore based Victory. I checked the PRO site and there are 3 entries for Fred Chester. One was born in 1898, so if your photo was taken around 1917, he would be 19. Where was he born?
If you go to the PRO site you can click on the Naval Service Records link and it will allow you to type in information re names etc. You can download the document for £3.50
Good luck
Masha

[Ray Lee]

Hi Masha
Went to PRO site clicked on a number of items but cannot find the right one to put in the names it just says no records - what is the correct link to enter
By the way was a stoker in the merchant navy as well, he started out as a fireman, he was born 1896 but I think he lied about his age|wave|

[Mutley]

Maybe these are the three Masha is referring to:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/search-results.asp?searchtype=browserefine&query=first_name%3dfred%20%7clast_name%3dchester&catid=15&pagenumber=1&querytype=1&mediaarray=*

There are also four under Frederick Chester
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/search-results.asp?searchtype=browserefine&query=first_name%3dfrederick%7clast_name%3dchester&catid=15&pagenumber=1&querytype=1&mediaarray=*

I hope the links work

This is where you enter the name
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=15&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1

[peter nicholl]

Just to put the finishing touches to Fire Queen. She was the yacht ex Candance, purchased 1882 and served as a General Depot at Portsmouth. Commissioned 1 December 1899 until 1914, at least. Paid Off(PO) 28 May 1919, sold 5 July 1920.
Victory II was at Crystal palace/Sydenham, Training Depot for RN Division 1914-PO 21 March 1919. Called HMS Crystal Palace:RNVRTraining Division December 1915 to 21 March 1919. Also Victory VI an unofficial name 10 September 1914-1916 RNR Battalions- by 1916 Maintenance Unit & Signal Section& Seaman Unit.
Source Warlow's Shore Establishments of the RN
Peter

[Ray Lee]

thanks peter
At what age would they have been allowed to join the navy, my guess is that the photo I have of my father in law would have been around 18 or 19 which would have been in 1917, is there any records around of crew lists or how do I go about getting his navel records, the 3 enteries mentioned by Masha earlier were not the Fred Chester I am looking for. incidently he was also on the HMS Campania and he looks about 18, he went onto 3 other ships in 1919 and 1920, Lucigen, Osnabruck and Woton
regards ray

[peter nicholl]

Hi Ray
I don't know the actual age, but they were "Boys", take a look at Jack Cornwall VC, 16 years old.
HMS Campania was a liner converted into an Aircraft Carrier. She should have been at the Battle of Jutland, but was left behind at Scapa Flow. Her place was taken by HMS Engadine, who flew off the only aeroplane in the Battle. It was flown by Rutland of Jutland and it is now in the FAA Museum, Yeovilton.
:cool: What a link! The FAA museum also has Crew Lists for RFA ships and the Lucigen was a RFA Tanker, I believe.
No luck with Wotan and Osnabruck: but with those names did he join somebody else's Navy ;) ?
Peter

[peter nicholl]

Hi Ray
Some further thoughts. HMS Campania was sunk 5 November 1918 in collision with HMS Royal Oak and HMS Glorious at Scapa Flow. From what you say, you have a photo of Fred. Does his cap tally have HMS Campania, or just Campania? I ask because the crews of some liners had uniforms which mirrored the RN and that may have applied to RMS Campania, what with Cunard being a rather big company. In any case the National Archives do have Merchant Seamen Records, so you may have better luck looking at them.
Peter
PS The SS Osnabruck was built in 1907 and sailed under the German Australian Line flag until seized by the Australian Authorities on 5 August 1914. She was re-named the Calulu.

[Ray Lee]

Hi Peter
Thanks for the info, I had a lot of that, it can be confusing at times, first his cap was HMS Campania, the vessels he was on I obtained that info from Southhampton records but only up to 1920 cant seem to get further yet I know he was in merchant navy upto his retirement
Ah well will keep trying, may have to get someone to do some research as online doesnt seem to give me the answers and being in Australia it is even harder - anyway many thanks
Ray

[Red-John]

I have just been to the National Archives in Kew, Surrey but if you cannot get there try searching on http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp using you relatives given and surname.

Just found my Stoker grandfather who between 1904 & 1918 served on HMS: Nelson, Firequeen, Leviathan, Victory II, Foresight, Attentive, Queen Mary and the Epress of India. Strange bloke, while in 60 days detention he broke out and then broke in again.

[driska]

|help| I am trying to get some information on the above, but the time period is some 10 years before the start of WWI. I know that Victory II was a Shore Station and during WWI, I believe that it was located at Crystal Palace, but was it in Portsmouth in 1905? Also, has anyone any information on HMS Firequeen (or is it Fire Queen?) in 1904?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Researching Haselgrove and Vaughan in the Royal Navy

My great uncle Thomas Gibbon was a chief engineer on the Firequeen from 1902 to 1905. It was a 440 tons steam yacht I believe it was in Portsmouth at that time.

[heapy]

It would seem that Victory 2 was at Portsmouth during WW2. My Grandfather was a Chief Mechanic at the time of his death in Haslar Hospital on May 15 1945. I have found that he was listed as serving on Victory 2 at this time. I was not aware it was a traing base ,and have been searching for this information.

[peter nicholl]

It would seem that Victory 2 was at Portsmouth during WW2. My Grandfather was a Chief Mechanic at the time of his death in Haslar Hospital on May 15 1945. I have found that he was listed as serving on Victory 2 at this time. I was not aware it was a traing base ,and have been searching for this information.
Hi Heapy
Victory II was an Accounting Section based at Newbury, Berkshire from 1940 to 1947. Although the RN used civilian hospitals, eg Barrow Gurney in Somerset, the 3 main RN Hospitals were Haslar serving mainly Portsmouth, Stonehouse serving mainly Devonport and the third being Chatham.
Peter

[bruros]

=Bart592;41208
Hi

Been trying to find out about HMS Fire Queen my Grandfather was on this ship 19th Nov 1904 to 31st March 1905 taken from his service record.

Maybe training ship in Portsmouth..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Grand-dad was also on HMS"Fire Queen from 26 Feb 1905 to 2 March 05.( Engine Room Artificer 4th Cl) Then HMS Excellent for one month, and on 4 April 06 went to HMS "Victory 2" from the 5th April when he was promoted to ERA 3rd Cl., leaving her on 19 July 06. I'll look forward to exchanging Notes, if you'd care to ring my Bell at :- [email protected] ; ! Cheers and Compliments of the Season , Bruce Graham

[charlie4605]

I have just started researching my grand father's Royal Navy service. He served on Victory II as early as Jan 1896 and in the early 1900's, first as a stoker and then a mechanic. he was also on Firequeen in 1904 and various others which I have yet to research. Thanks for all the information I have found in the forum. If anyone has any further information I would be pleased to hear.
charlie4605 researching Charlton

[bruros]

Gidday Charlie ! Good to see your Post. Since my first effort, I have discovered a few facts more than I knew B 4 !
Both HMS "Victory 2 " and "Firequeen " were Training Establishments. I used to wonder just why, on my Grand-dad's WW1 Service Record, it showed such lengthy periods of time in Training Establishments.
Howevr when I got to think about it more, I realised several things:-1) The year Grand-dad Edgar signed up, 1903 in fact, we are talking about an Era when many of the Crews at Sea would have served under Sail alone. The combination vessels (Sail assisted by Steam" were still around, but being replaced by Power Driven Vessels. So The Navy had to fully train up hundreds , if not thousands of men for Active Service.
Havinmg been a "Maritime Studies Tutor" for almost 20 years, I realise what the Trainers were facing ! E.R.A.'s like Edgar, who was a trained Engine Fitter, had to be taught almost EVERYTHING ! :- Ship Stability; Fire Fighting; Fitting and Turning; Blacksmithing,Boiler making; Shipwrighting, not to mention how to maintain Safety in Ships' Engine Rooms and Boiler rooms and most of all , how to operate any Machinery , above or below Decks, including Derricks, Cranes and Winches ; Windlass's and Capstans. THEN they had to be made familiar with the Ship's Weaponry ! !
So Edgar did 5 days training on HMS "Fire Queen", followed by 396 days on HMS "Excellent", then 107 days on HMS"Victory 2"
Before F-Queen , he had served on HMS Duke of Wellington and HMS Hanibal , for a total of 506 days. Both were Fighting ships.
By the end of his Training (F-Queen, Excellent and Victory 2) he had risen from Assistant ERA to ERA 3rd Class.After that lot he was ERA 3rd Class on HMS "Hecla" for another 906 days ....that was only a 3rd of his Service, and about half his Period in Training !
The next mystery I'm trying to unravel is :- From 1/04/1918, he was on HMS"Vernon" (TB109) until 31/03/18. Then HMS"Victory X"(TB109) from 01/04/18 until 25/02/1919. All I can find out so far, is they were both Shore Training Establishments, and that a "TB109" was a Torpedo Boat around 106 feet long. Also in WW2, the TB's would go out into The Channel, a'hunting Germam E-Boats, and I am wondering if that happened in WW1 as well....does anyone know ? T-T-F-N, and Best for 2015, Bruce Graham!

[charlie4605]

Hi Bruce. Thanks for such detailed info. One thing I don't understand is how do you find out which vessels were real ships and which were training establishments? My Grandad served on Victory 2, Royal Oak, Polyphemus, Charyldis, Furious, Pembroke, Droftwell, Vernon, Caesar, Orion, Firequeen 2 etc, etc...................I could go on and on!! Does the website www.pbenyon.plus.com just list real ships and is there a separate list of training establishments? Best wishes, Charlie.

[bruros]

Hi Charlie,
Thanks a bunch for your comments , in response to mine.
When I started this " Grand-dad's History" thing, I knew very little about what there is " out there" about Naval and Merchant Ships.
I had looked up all the Merchant Ships I had served upon, plus HMS"Hood" , since the youngest son of Grand-dad Edgar's sons....Donald Graham ( a.k.a. Uncle Jock) , was a Supply Assistant on that ship , when she was sunk with ( almost) All Hands in 1941.
With Edgar's WW1 and WW2 Service record, all I did was , taking each Vessel, one at a time , type on the Google Searchline , for example , his first Berth on:- HMS"Duke of Wellington" in 1903.....that was the year Edgar started with The Navy, and from the length of Service, 86 days, the D of W being a Shore Base
( Cement Frigate ! ! )I deduced this might have been called " Basic Training", which EVERYONE should have before they set foot on their first Sea going ship.
Funny , when you think back ! I can remember being on the deck of a heavily rolling and pitching ship in the Bay of Biscay, outward bound for West Africa. I was a 2nd or 3rd Trip Cadet at the time, and placed in charge of two other Cadets ( known as "Middies") and two first trip Deck Boys. The job , chosen for it's " Cushy number" , well away from the Fore Deck, where the Bosun was in charge of "MEN !" was up on the Boatdeck securing a couple of heavy crates which had worked their way loose. I was 18 , the other guys were 16 and 17, and not one of them had ever seen a ship before ! It was a wonder we didn't lose the lot of them overboard , puir wee Souls !
Good luck with the Googling ! Cheers Bruce G.

[charlie4605]

Hi Bruce,
Thanks for your help.............I'm on the case.
Best wishes,
Charlie

[paulhorne]

Small world ... my grandfather served on the Nelson in 1904, Firequeen in Jan 1905, the Drake 1905 and the Victory II in 1906 and was invalided out when he lost his leg, then a stoker, on the Victory II. I got to here looking for the same information as everyone else and chances are some of these men
would have known each other.
Navy discharge:
He injured his leg when a large peice of coal fell on it; this was somewhere near Gibralter (reference to it in the naval record); gangrene then set in and he ended up in hospital in Portsmouth (which is where it may have been amputated).
So if Victory II was a training establishment would it have been out at sea in Gibralter at that time?

[LOVAT#]

So if Victory II was a training establishment would it have been out at sea in Gibralter at that time?

The answer is no - HMS VICTORY II was a shore accounting base. This confuses a lot of people not familiar with Naval records. Usually, on the records, the shore accounting base is shown and the sea-going ship may be shown in brackets next to the accounting base.

Regards
Hugh

[charlie4605]

The answer is no - HMS VICTORY II was a shore accounting base. This confuses a lot of people not familiar with Naval records. Usually, on the records, the shore accounting base is shown and the sea-going ship may be shown in brackets next to the accounting base.

Regards
Hugh

I am new to this and struggling to understand the jargon. I am also looking at Victory II as my grandfather served on it from Jan 1896 to March 1899 and again in 1905. 1912 and 1919. I have obtained a book "Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy" by Lt. Cdr. B Warlow RN, which describes Victory II as follows, (I have quoted exactly as the entries in the book):-
VICTORY II Crystal Palace/Sydenham. Training Depot for RN. Division 1915 Called HMS CRYSTAL PALACE.
VICTORY II Newbury/Portsmouth. Accounting Section. To Goodings, Newbury 04.09.1940, at Portsmouth (Commercial Chambers) late 1945.
I assume this means that VICTORY II was a training depot up to 1915 after which it was called HMS CRYSTAL PALACE. It was transferred to Goodings, Newbury in 1940 becoming an accounting base until 1945 when it was transferred to Portsmouth.

Can you tell me if I am interpreting this correctly? Was VICTORY II an actual ship or a shore establishment. It all seems very confusing. My grandfather's service record shows him serving on a number of shore establishments between 1896 and 1918 and I would like to understand more about what these were.
charlie4605

[peter nicholl]

The wording of the various rules and regulations, including discipline, meant that they applied only to ships and boats of the RN. Shore Establishments took their names from actual vessels. Some were general purpose, while others e.g. HMS Vernon (torpedoes) were training establishments. Also, HMS Heron (RNAS Yeovilton). To answer your question HMS Victory II was a Shore Establishment which took its name from the vessel HMS Victory. Shore Establishments were often referred to as Stone Frigates.
Peter
PS The first paragraph of the Author's Preface to "Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy" has a quite useful explanation on the subject.

[LOVAT#]

VICTORY II Crystal Palace/Sydenham. Training Depot for RN. Division 1915 Called HMS CRYSTAL PALACE.
VICTORY II Newbury/Portsmouth. Accounting Section. To Goodings, Newbury 04.09.1940, at Portsmouth (Commercial Chambers) late 1945.
I assume this means that VICTORY II was a training depot up to 1915 after which it was called HMS CRYSTAL PALACE.

HMS VICTORY II was still HMS VICTORY II after 1915 - HMS CRYSTAL PALACE was only an informal name, never officially HMS.

Regards
Hugh

[jimrutter]

Hi

Been trying to find out about HMS Fire Queen my Grandfather was on this ship 19th Nov 1904 to 31st March 1905 taken from his service record.

Maybe training ship in Portsmouth.

Hello, I am trying to get info about CPO J Arnold who served aboard the Firequeen 23 Nov 1904 - Mar 1905. I need a good photo (6 x4). Jim Rutter

[Red-John]

Victory II was the Crystal Palace/Sydenham training depot for the Royal Naval Division from 1914 and in Naval parlance, was "paid off" on 21.3.19. It was also known as HMS Crystal Palace. It appears to have had no existence prior to 1914.Terry Reeves

Source: Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy. Lt Commander B Warlow RN 1992 and 2000.

Victory appears to be a name used for Royal Navy accounting purposes which means that Victory II could be at Crystal Palace and Portsmouth at the same time. http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?p=68275 lists up to ten Victory shore stations and one post suggests that Victory II was the 'ship' used to identify stokers and aspiring petty officers.

Victory II existed in Portsmouth before and after the second world war.

John C

[Blue Dragoon]

Whilst this thread confirms HMS Victory II as a stone frigate accounting base in ww1 it was clearly in existence in some guise pre-ww1. my wife's cousins record is shown below. So was Victory II a Crystal Palace accounting depot pre-ww1??

Royal Navy Service – 278731 Stoker Charles Frank Racher
BIRTH 12 OCT 1876 • Bassingbourn, Cambridgeshire, England
DEATH 15 JAN 1954 • Edmonton, Middlesex, England

8 Jan 1895 – 16 Jan 1896 – HMS Victory II

17 Jan 1896 – 10 Oct 1896 – HMS Australia

HMS Australia was one of seven Orlando-class armoured cruisers built for the Royal Navy in the mid-1880s. In the 1890s Australia was the coast guard ship for Southampton Water.

11 Oct 1896 – 21 Nov 1896 – HMS Victory II
22 Nov 1896 – 19 Dec 1896 – HMS Victory I
20 Dec 1896 – 28 Jan 1897 – HMS Victory II

29 Jan 1897 – 23 Apr 1900 – HMS Tauranga

HMS Tauranga was a Pearl-class cruiser of the Royal Navy. The vessel was originally named Phoenix and built by J & G Thomson, Glasgow. She was launched on 28 October 1889. She was part of the Auxiliary Squadron of the Australia Station. During the Samoan civil war in 1899, she took part in operations with HMS Porpoise and HMS Royalist.

24 Apr 1900 – 13 Jul 1901 – HMS Duke of Wellington

From 1863 onwards HMS Duke of Wellington served as the receiving, depot and barracks ship at Portsmouth, remaining as such until scrapped in 1904.

14 Jul – 30 Sep 1901 – HMS Revenge

HMS Revenge was one of seven Royal Sovereign-class pre-dreadnought battleships built for the Royal Navy during the 1890s. She spent much of her early career as a flagship for the Flying Squadron and in the Mediterranean, Home and Channel Fleets. She was placed in reserve in 1900, and was then briefly assigned as a coast guard ship before she joined the Home Fleet in 1902.

1 Oct 1901 – 6 Feb 1903 – HMS Australia

Assigned to the Coast Guard Squadron. In September 1901 she visited Germany and Denmark, when she escorted the royal yacht HMY Osborne carrying King Edward VII from Hamburg to Elsinore. She took part in the fleet review held at Spithead on 16 August 1902 for the coronation of King Edward VII. The ship was placed in reserve at Chatham Dockyard in 1903.

7 Feb – 8 Dec 1903 - HMS Venus

HMS Venus was an Eclipse-class protected cruiser built for the Royal Navy in the mid-1890s. In 1903 she was in Chatham dockyard.

9-21 Dec 1903 – HMS Fire Stream

Special Service Vessel - Steam Yacht. Purchased 1882 and disposed of in 1920.

22 Dec 1903 – 2 Apr 1905 – HMS Glory

HMS Glory was a pre-dreadnought battleship of the British Royal Navy and a member of the Canopus class. Intended for service in Asia, Glory and her sister ships were smaller and faster than the preceding Majestic-class battleships, but retained the same battery of four 12-inch (305 mm) guns. She also carried thinner armour, but incorporated new Krupp steel, which was more effective than the Harvey armour used in the Majestics. Glory was laid down in December 1896, launched in March 1899, and commissioned into the fleet in November 1900. Glory spent much of her peacetime career abroad. She was assigned to the China Station from 1901 to 1905, before returning to British waters for a brief stint with the Channel Fleet and then the Home Fleet from late 1905 to early 1907.

3 Apr – 25 Aug 1905 – HMS Centurion

Completed in 1894, HMS Centurion was the lead ship of her class of two pre-dreadnought battleships built for the Royal Navy in the 1890s. Intended for service abroad, they exchanged heavy armour and a powerful armament for high speed and long range to counter the foreign armoured cruisers then being built as commerce raiders and were rated as second-class battleships.
In 1905, the United Kingdom and Japan renewed the Anglo-Japanese Alliance which reduced the need for a large Royal Navy presence on the China Station and all its battleships were withdrawn. Accordingly, on 7 June, Centurion, together with the battleship HMS Ocean, departed Hong Kong. At Singapore, they rendezvoused with the battleships HMS Albion and HMS Vengeance. The four battleships departed Singapore on 20 June and steamed in company to Plymouth, where they arrived on 2 August. Centurion paid off at Portsmouth on 25 August. She recommissioned the following day with a nucleus crew as part of the Portsmouth Division of the Reserve Fleet because she was already obsolete.

22 Oct 1905 – 2 Sep 1907 – HMS Nelson

HMS Lord Nelson was a Lord Nelson-class pre-dreadnought battleship launched in 1906 and completed in 1908. She was the Royal Navy's last pre-dreadnought.

3 Sep – 9 Oct 1907 - HMS Edgar

HMS Edgar was a first class cruiser of the Royal Navy, and lead ship of the Edgar class. She was built at Devonport and launched on 24 November 1890.
10 Oct 1907 – 12 Jan 1910 – HMS Powerful

HMS Powerful was the lead ship of her class of two protected cruisers built for the Royal Navy in the 1890s. In 1905 when Powerful became the flagship of the Australia Station until her return home in 1912.

13 Jan – 24 Feb 1910 – HMS Terrible

HMS Terrible was the second and last of the Powerful-class protected cruisers built for the Royal Navy (RN) in the 1890s. The ship served as an accommodation ship from 1909 to 1913.

25 Feb 1910 – 17 Apr 1912 – HMS Victory II

18 Apr – 24 May 1912 – HMS Spartiate

HMS Spartiate was a ship of the Diadem-class protected cruisers in the Royal Navy. She was built at Pembroke Dock and launched on 27 October 1898. She was a stokers' training ship in 1914.

25 May 1912 – 10 Nov 1915 - HMS Minotaur

HMS Minotaur was the lead ship of the Minotaur-class armoured cruisers built for the Royal Navy. Launched in 1906, she served as the flagship of the China Station before the First World War. Ordered to the China Station in January 1910 to relieve King Alfred as flagship. Minotaur was in Wei Hai Wei on 3 July 1914 when most of the ships assigned to the China Station were ordered to assemble at Hong Kong. Shortly after the start of the First World War, the ship, together with the armoured cruiser Hampshire and the light cruiser Newcastle sailed for the German-owned island of Yap. They captured the collier Elsbeth on 11 August and destroyed the radio station there with gunfire. They then unsuccessfully searched for the ships of the East Asia Squadron until the light cruiser Emden was reported to have destroyed several ships in the Bay of Bengal in mid-September. Minotaur was ordered to the west coast of Sumatra to search for the German warship, but was unsuccessful. She was then ordered to escort a troop convoy from Wellington, New Zealand in late September. The ship was detached from the convoy and ordered to proceed to the Cape of Good Hope and reinforce the squadron there on 6 November after the Admiralty learned of the defeat at the Battle of Coronel. Upon her arrival Minotaur became flagship of the Cape of Good Hope Station under the command of Vice Admiral Herbert King-Hall and escorted a South African troop convoy to Luderitz Bay in German South-West Africa. The ship was near Table Bay, South Africa when the East Asia Squadron was destroyed during the Battle of the Falklands in early December and she was ordered home on 8 December.

Upon her arrival, Minotaur became flagship of the 7th Cruiser Squadron, under the command of Rear Admiral Arthur Waymouth, based at Cromarty Firth. She received a brief refit in early 1915 and was then assigned to Northern Patrol for the next year. During the rest of the war Minotaur served as the flagship of the 7th and 2nd Cruiser Squadrons and spent most of her time assigned to the Northern Patrol.

11 Feb 1915 – 4 Feb 1916 – HMS Victory II

5 Feb – 21 Mar 1916 – HMS Vernon

HMS Vernon was a shore establishment or "stone frigate" of the Royal Navy. Vernon was established on 26 April 1876 as the Royal Navy's Torpedo Branch also known as the Torpedo School, named after the ship HMS Vernon which served as part of its floating base.

22 Mar – 19 Apr 1916– HMS Victory II
20 Apr – 16 Nov 1916 – HMS Vernon
12 – 24 Nov 1916– HMS Victory II

25 Nov 1916 – 30 Jun 1917 – HMS Actaeon

HMS Actaeon was a hulk, originally the 50-gun fourth rate HMS Vernon that formed part of the Navy's torpedo school, HMS Vernon. She was renamed HMS Actaeon in 1886.

1 Jul 1917 – 7 May 1918 – HMS Victory I
8 May – 3 Oct 1918 – HMS Victory II
Demobilised

[peter nicholl]

Just a thought and The R N museum may shed more light on the subject. In 1853 the RN brought in the idea of Continuous Service for sailors. I imagine that this raised the problem of what to do with sailors once they had been paid off and were "between ships" but still needed to be subject to Naval Regulations. A possible answer was to assign them to a ship that wasn't going anywhere, e g HMS Victory. Perhaps someone said "But Victory has a complement of about 850, so if we have more than that number, we assign them as Victory Crew I, etc."
Or, not.

[peter nicholl]

Or, you could try here: http://www.godfreydykes.info/NAVAL_FORUMS_USED_BY_CIVILIANS_OR_EX_NAVAL_PERSONN EL.html