Ideas Please-Shipping-Unions-Orphanage

[Dreamer]

G/grandfather has been lost for twenty years of search but have now found him. Badly need some ideas as to where I can find further information.

He was born John Charles COOPER 1866 either Islington or St Lukes London - died 26th Dec 1911 Coast Hospital Little Bay Sydney Australia of a cerebral tumour. He was a musician but when work was short he worked on the ships he apparently worked as a steward and musician on board the liners.

My questions - how do I find orphange records?

The records of the ships he may have travelled on?

Union records for the musicians or stewards?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Pam........NZ

[Peter Goodey]

For orphanage records, you need to know the name of the orphanage.

Merchant Seamen's records are at the National Archives. Have a look at the research guides here-
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/researchguidesindex.asp?j=1#m

Surviving records of the National Union of Seamen (before 1926, the National Amalgamated Sailors and Firemen's Union) are at Warwick University.

I'm afraid I know nothing about the Musicians' Union.

[Dreamer]

Many thanks Peter - will follow up and see what I can find.

Pam.........NZ

[Peter Goodey]

I wouldn't spend too much time on most of those, if I were you.

The "orphanage" business might be worth following up. Do you actually have evidence that he was in one? Or this an assumption or hearsay? Do you have his birth certificate? Have you found him in all (or some) relevant censuses? Tell us what leads you to believe he was in an orphanage?

Civil registration and censuses are probably your priority things to attack.

[Dreamer]

Hi Peter.

I found some old faded letters from my mothers cousin in England telling her about different members of the family, where they came from and what they did. In it he said that her grandfather had been brought up in a orphanage - left on the door step actually but he didn't know the reason why. The orphanage had taught him to play the cornet and from that he had earnt his living in later life. When there was a shortage of musical work in England John would go on the liners entertaining the passengers. As he couldn't play all day, he would also help out with some other occupation while on ship - why he is down as a steward on his death certificate. In the letter it said he died at sea some where in the Australian/New Zealand waters. I have found he died in Sydney 24/12/1911 at a Coast Hospital from a cerebral tumour - he had been sick for 7 days. Awaiting confirmation that he is buried at the Waverley Cemetery.

My next move is to find the orphanage Johhn would go on the liners entertaining the passengers. As he couldn't play all day, he would also help out with some other occupation while on ship - why he is down as a steward on his death certificate. In the letter it said he died at sea some where in the Australian/New Zealand waters. I have found he died in Sydney 24/12/1911 at a Coast Hospital from a cerebral tumour - he had been sick for 7 days. Awaiting confirmation that he is buried at the Waverley Cemetery.

My next move is to find the orphanage John was brought up in - the ship he was travelling on - maybe confirm with the Unions that he did work as a steward and maybe playing in the evening to entertain the passengers. Hopefully some where in that lot one of them will give me a clue to the next step.
Many thanks for your help so far Peter.

Pam.......NZ

[Chasing Caseys]

My questions - how do I find Union records for the musicians or stewards?
Surviving records of the National Union of Seamen (before 1926, the National Amalgamated ) are at Warwick University.
I have my gt grandfathers Sailors and Firemen's Union card 1903 and wanted to find out more and this is the reply i got from Warwick........................
Although the Modern Records Centre has records of the National Union of Seamen and its predecessors including the National Sailors and Firemen's Union we do not have any membership records so we cannot give you any more information. We do have a webpage about seamen and this can be found at : http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/holdings/genealogy/seamen/ (http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/holdings/genealogy/seamen/)

Which confused me slightly

[Ed McKie]

[QUOTE=Dreamer]G/grandfather has been lost for twenty years of search but have now found him. Badly need some ideas as to where I can find further information.

He was born John Charles COOPER 1866 either Islington or St Lukes London - died 26th Dec 1911 Coast Hospital Little Bay Sydney Australia of a cerebral tumour. He was a musician but when work was short he worked on the ships he apparently worked as a steward and musician on board the liners.


dreamer

You havent said what you have done ! Is this your John Charles on the 1901 Census occupation Cornet player with his family ?

Do you have his marriage cert to see if he said that he knew who his father was ? Your letter could be a red herring and you need to do your basic stuff first I would suggest.

Cheers..Ed

[Peter Goodey]

"Orphanage" could have been a euphemism. If you're really desperate to identify the place, I'd try the workhouse records as a first port of call (London Metropolitan Archives).

[Dreamer]

Hi every one

First - yes that is my g/grandfather and his family on the 1901 census - the other John Charles is my grandfather and on his marriage certificate is his parents names which is correct. Half his siblings names are correct - the ones I didn't know died young, so were never mentioned.
The death certificate I have of John snr is correct.

Thank you all very much for the leads on the Unions and orphanages - I will follow up on all those and fingers crossed they will lead me on to the next step. Every tiny clue is worth a million thanks to you all.

Pam...............NZ

[Ed McKie]

I still think that the marriage cert for JC to Mary Ann Witham if you do not have it will take you further back, by giving the name and occupation of his father.

and then if it was me I would also buy the birth certificate listed on freebmd for John Charles Cooper born in St. Lukes in 1866
Cheers..Ed