Occupation on marriage certificate

[inside centre]

Hi iam struggling to read parts of a marriage certificate in have recently got.how do I get help when I can't post on this forum?cheers

[inside centre]

Sorry would it be easier to post this on rootschat?

[warncoort]

Don't follow,you say you can't post on here?But you have!!Now crop the certificate and post here.

[Megan Roberts]

I am assuming that you don't know how to upload a document?

In the bar above the message you should see symbols for type face etc plus some others. If you "hover" your mouse over them you will find one which says "insert image".

As Warncourt suggests crop the image so that the occupation bit is legible to us.

[inside centre]

Thanks, will give it a go!

[inside centre]

Hi iam struggling to read parts of a marriage certificate in have recently got.how do I get help when I can't post on this forum?cheers
I can read Labourer , but the word underneath s frustrating me!


https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/7fdeef55-0e18-469f-8bf9-42f5ae86393f.jpg

[emeltee]

Could be Sawyer possibly for some reason spelled Saywyer

Emeltee

[arthurk]

I can read Labourer , but the word underneath s frustrating me!

If it weren't for the first descender (stroke going below the line) then like Emeltee I'd say Sawyer. This may be what was intended and it's just a slip of the pen, and to be honest, I can't think of anything else that might fit.

This certificate is from the GRO, so what you see is an image of the quarterly return written out and sent in by whoever kept the register at that time. The original register may well be clearer, though from Exeter you might not find it easy to access that. It might be worth checking for an Online Parish Clerk (OPC) for the place it took place, or a site like FreeReg, in case they have a full transcript from the register.

Alternatively, if the occupation on a census was clearly Sawyer, I think I might be inclined to go with "slip of the pen".

Arthur

[Megan Roberts]

I read "Sawyer" which was "Timber mill/pit worker, sawing timber ".

If you are interested in old occupations a useful site to bookmark is:
http://www.rmhh.co.uk/occup/

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Hi thanks for all your replies much appreciated. I might try rootschat Pembrokeshire section who knows there maybe a descendent from the same family who may know.many thanks.

[emeltee]

You don't give a date for the marriage but looking at the certificate it is obviously post 1837. Have you tried looking on the Censuses for the person concerned to see what occupation is given.

Emeltee

[inside centre]

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/9a738b78-bbf8-4a31-9866-dfe615ff57b0.jpg
Here is an upload of the whole certificate. Yes, 1838. I currently don't subscribe to an sites that allow me to look at Cencuses I'm afraid. Many thanks.

[emeltee]

You don't need to subscribe . Not only is there FreeCen but also Censuses are available on the familysearch site.

Emeltee

[inside centre]

great thanks for the info will check it out cheers.

[emeltee]

If you care to gives us what details you have on the couple there may be someone who can help. For example, at present we are working in the dark, so to speak. Just because the couple married in Pembrokshire doesn't mean that they were born there. No point in looking for a Thomas Morgans in Pembrokeshire in 1841, to try and confirm his occupation, if he's living in a different part of the country.

Emeltee

[Megan Roberts]

It is difficult to read sideways on, but I think that his name was Robert Kelly and that he was in the Royal Marines and living in Barracks, which means that he was in the army stationed in Pembroke, which had a large military / naval presence at that time. It was one of the main naval dockyards in the UK.

[almach]

Details from the marriage cert are:
May 8th 1838. Robert Kelly full age, royal marine, barracks, father John Kelly, labourer.
Ann Morgans, full age, father Thomas Morgans, sawyer.
Witnesses: Thomas Wilcox and Martha Morgans.

[almach]

Here's a possible 1841 census record for Thomas, father of Ann, and some possible baptisms. The baptisms are from https://familysearch.org/

1841, Queen St, St Mary, Pembroke.
HO107; Piece: 1451; Book: 2; Folio: 30; Page: 9;
Thomas Morgan 55, sawyer
Anne Morgan 55
William Morgan 15
Margret Morgan 10

Name Anne Morgan
Gender Female
Christening Date 09 Feb 1816
Christening Place SAINT MARY,PEMBROKE,PEMBROKE,WALES
Father's Name Thomas Morgan
Mother's Name Anne

Name Martha Morgans
Gender Female
Christening Date 14 May 1819
Christening Place SAINT MARY,PEMBROKE,PEMBROKE,WALES
Father's Name Thomas Morgans
Mother's Name Ann

Name Margret Morgans
Gender Female
Christening Date 12 Apr 1831
Christening Place SAINT MARY TABERNACLE INDEPENDENT,PEMBROKE DOCK,PEMBROKE,WALES
Birth Date 11 Apr 1831
Father's Name Thomas Morgans
Mother's Name Ann Howels

Name William Morgan
Gender Male
Christening Date 05 Sep 1821
Christening Place SAINT MARY,PEMBROKE,PEMBROKE,WALES
Father's Name Thomas Morgan
Mother's Name Ann

Name John Morgans
Gender Male
Christening Date 29 Aug 1813
Christening Place SAINT MARY,PEMBROKE,PEMBROKE,WALES
Father's Name Thomas Morgans
Mother's Name Anne

[helachau]

Had a look at the baptismal images for St. Mary's, Pembroke

On Ann's baptism, 9 Feb 1816, Thomas' occupation was "Labourer, abode Lanion"

However, on William's baptism, 5 Sep 1821, Thomas' occupation is "Sawyer, abode Lanion"

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Hi thank you all for your replies.Excellent there's a fair bit to go through.looking at the certificate it says in the presence of Martha Morgans could she be some kind of relative?Also when i was tracing this family just over a year ago.Ann and Robert had a child in 1839 called Eliza,i know she got married in south Devon to James Hucker,so i think Robert must of come from down here in Devon But i could never find Ann,Robert and Eliza in the 1841-51.Could they have lived abroad seeing as Robert was a marine?Many thanks.

[geneius]

I currently don't subscribe to an sites that allow me to look at Cencuses
Try your local library who may subscribe to one or all of the subscription sites, also your local record office.

1851 &1881 are free to view on the subscription site together with BMD which can also be found on the freesite freebmd.org.uk

[inside centre]

OK thanks for your help much appreciated.

[Megan Roberts]

Also when i was tracing this family just over a year ago.Ann and Robert had a child in 1839 called Eliza,i know she got married in south Devon to James Hucker,so i think Robert must of come from down here in Devon But i could never find Ann,Robert and Eliza in the 1841-51.Could they have lived abroad seeing as Robert was a marine?Many thanks.

I think you should look at the location of the various naval dockyards rather than simply assuming that Robert came from Devon.

The naval dockyards were located in places like, Pembroke, Newport, Plymouth, Portsmouth, Chatham, to say nothing of those overseas. You would find that personnel would move around the different dockyards. I have found this with shipwrights, and am sure that it would be true for marines.

The National Archives has a research guide about the Royal Marines that might help you:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-marines-service-records-1842-1925/

[helachau]

Royal Marines are never the easiest to track! I spotted this item yesterday - see column 1 - "Pembroke Dock Yard"
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3329890/3329893/9/alban

I began to check out the movements of the Alban in the Sep 1840 newspapers and found -
The Evening Chronicle,7 Sep 1840
"The Alban ..... to Pembroke, to relieve a detachment of the Portsmouth division doing duty there".

However, I think I also spotted mention of Plymouth in another publication?. Didn't have chance to check out further (allotment is the priority in fine weather, sadly) but will revisit later (weather even better today).

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Thank you very much for the info.The only reason i thought Robert came from Devon,was because i found a marriage between him and (cant remember her first name) surname Yeo in the 1860s.And on Roberts daughter Eliza Kelly marriage certificate witness was surname Yeo.And that for some reason i thought he had roots down here.Many thanks.

[helachau]

I can find several reports of a detachment of marines from the Plymouth Division being sent to Pembroke Dock Jun 1835 - see column 5.
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4364226/4364229/12/marines%20AND%20pembroke

The Monmouthshire Merlin, Sep 1839 reported the marriage "5th inst, at Pembroke, Lieut. Holland, Royal Marines to ...". Robert Kelly was there 1838 (marriage) and early 1839 (birth registration Eliza).

Baptism (FMP images) - Place - Jacobstowe; year - 1810 "Robert, son of John and Mary Kelly was baptised Nov 18th"

Census 1861 - ref RG09 1466 97 4
Robert Kelley, age 50, occpn. Out Pensioner Greenwich, born Jacobstowe.
Relationship to Head of Branch is not completed - HoB is a John Kelley, age 52, occpn. labourer, born Jacobstowe.

Marriage (image on FMP) on 9 Feb 1864 in the Parish of Jacobstow.
Robert Kelly, age 52, widower, father John Kelly, labourer and Ann Yeo, age 35, widow, father William Rich(?), Yeoman(?). Robert's occupation "Pension in the Royal Marines"

[inside centre]

Thats great thank you very much for your time on this. Would you say then that in your opinion that is my my Robert Kelly born in Jacobstowe,or 50/50? Many thanks.

[helachau]

Would you say then that in your opinion that is my my Robert Kelly born in Jacobstowe,or 50/50? .

Are you familiar with Stan Freberg's parody of the 1950's series Dragnet (Jack Webb) - "St. George and the Dragonet" - where the central character says "We just want to get the facts, sir". I'm more than happy to get the facts but, as for interpreting them, that's not for me.

I've seen trees built on the fact that someone once passed thru' the County forty years previously and his surname began with an E!

In this instance I might begin to look for the death of "your" Robert's wife, mother of Eliza.

Sorry to dodge the column on this one.

[helachau]

National Archives

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10054423

[Dundee10]

Would you say then that in your opinion that is my my Robert Kelly born in Jacobstowe,or 50/50? Many thanks.

I would say there is a very good chance it is him. By 1871 daughter Eliza Jane is widowed and in the workhouse with her three HUCKER children who were all born Sampford Courtenay. In 1881 she is again in the workhouse this time with her five children from a second relationship (though they are enumerated as HUCKER) and she and all the children are said to be born in Jacobstowe. This wasn't true but perhaps the reference to Jacobstowe is another link to Robert being her father.

In case you don't have them, the children's birth registrations are all indexed under the surname BROWN and all with a third middle name of LEACH. The eldest Thomas John was registered at St Austell, Cornwall in 1872, William Henry in Okehampton in 1874, George Edward in Bedminster, Somerset 1875, Samuel Charles in Okehampton in 1877, and Sarah Annie in Okehampton in 1879.

In 1891 William is said to be born in Bridestowe, George in Portishead, Somerset, and Samuel and Sarah in Okehampton.

[helachau]

Marriage 28 Oct, 1861, Parish of Sampford Courtenay

Eliza Jane Kelly, full age, spinster, residence Sampford Courtenay, father Robert Kelly, soldier of Sampford Courtenay and Thomas Hucker. Witnesses Robert Kelly and Thomas Yeo.

1861 Census - ref. RG09 1469 27 8
Eliza J Kelly, servant, unmarried, age 22, occpn. house servant, born Wales. Address Exbourne, Okehampton.

Robert Kelly, Out Pensioner Greenwich is at Jacobstowe on the 1861 Census. You can throw a blanket over Jacobstowe, Exbourne and Sampford Courtenay (well, almost!).

NOTE - there's a Thomas Yeo (not Gen as transcribed by FMP) with a 21 year old Eliza Kelly in Marwood, Barnstaple - census ref RG09 1494 31 1. Have tracked this Eliza back to the '41 Census and baptism to John and Elizabeth.

[inside centre]

Thank you for your reply.So Eliza's children were born with the surname Brown?then later she changed it to Hucker?if so i'd love to know how you found this info.often wondered there real surname if this is right.Many thanks.

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Thanks for your reply again helachau.On one of your other posts you said about looking for the death of Roberts wife Ann Kelly.If i did find this and brought the certificate.What kind of info would i find out from the certificate.Many thanks.

[helachau]

Robert Kelly, the 1864 bridegroom, was a widower on his marriage cert. Finding a death for an Ann Kelly, wife of Robert Kelly (possibly named on death cert), would be another "tick" towards confirming the "'64 bridegroom" as the Pembroke Dock marine. However, there are so many deaths of an Ann Kelly, plus the fact she could have died abroad, makes it very much a last resort/non starter.

What about the National Archive Robert at #29 above - worth pursuing?

A couple of more sightings re. the "'64 bridegroom" -

1871 Census ref RG10 2155 26 5
Robert Kelly, Head, Marr, age 60, Annuitant, born Jacobstowe; with him is wife Ann, 42 and Lucy Yeo, 22, step daughter

DEATHS (FMP image)
Robert Kelly, abode - Street, burial date - 23 Feb 1879, age - 68. Burial place Strete, St Michael, Parish of Blackawton, Kingsbridge District

Census 1881 ref RG11 2180 35 19
Ann Kelly, servant, widow, age 49, occpn. - Nurse (Dom), born Jacobstow
Address Sil Anchadah(?), Blackawton, Kingsbridge

[helachau]

Western Times, 21 Feb 1879
DEATHS
February 18th, at Strete, near Dartmouth, Robert Kelly, pensioner Royal Marines, and in the employment of Lieut. Colonel Madden, whom he has faithfully served upwards of 23 years.

Note - the Robert Kelly at #29 above appears to have been discharged 1855. The "upwards of 23 years" conveniently fits the period 1855-1879?

[helachau]

"Sil Amchadha" (#34 above "Sil(?) Anchadah(?)) was the residence of Lieut, Colonel Lewis Powell Madden, died March Qtr, 1887, Kingsbridge district.

[inside centre]

Thanks again for your reply.there's a fair bit to take in and look up which is great.going back to the first Ann Kelly if by some miracle I did find her death certificate would it have her maiden name on there?thanks again.

[helachau]

No, it wouldn't have the maiden name.
You need the record identified at #29 above - (from memory "Robert Kelly, Devon, attested Portsmouth, 1835-1855?)

How confident are YOU that the Eliza J Kelly on the '61 Census (calculated YoB 1839, born Wales, residence Exbourne)

a) is the Eliza Kelly registered March Qtr, 1839, Pembroke, Wales, mother's maiden name Morgans?

b) is the Eliza Jane Kelly that married Thomas Hucker 28 Oct 1861?

Have you looked for any other Eliza Kellys, born Wales, circa 1839? I've been searching for a baptism for an Eliza Kelly (w or w/o J/Jane), Pembroke c. 1839. Registers sometime include extra info that might contribute. The registers I'm checking aren't indexed, hence I have to work through them. Have checked St. Mary's and St. Michael's, Pembroke (St. John's does not begin til 1844) and need to roll out to surrounding Parishes.

[helachau]

They say "never assume". Sadly. I'd assumed that Census checks of Eliza Jane Hucker post marriage hadn't identified PoB. Hence the doubts.

Just checked 1871 and it's "Pembroke, Wales".

[inside centre]

Sorry helachau i should of said before, i do have Eliza Kelly birth certificate and her marriage certificate.She was born 31st of January 1839,Pembroke Dock in the parish of Saint Mary.Mother Ann Morgans.I did find in the 1841 census in Plymouth a Robert Kelley,wife Ann and daughter Elizabeth all there ages seem to tie in,but Robert's occupation was Navy,and was Eliza short for Elizabeth back in the day?Many thanks.