James Henry Frederick

[leonard24]

Hello,

First sorry for my english,

I am looking for the parents of Jacques Henri Frédérick and Marie Emilie Gervain.

They married in Calcutta on 4 May 1833 according to FIBIS but I can not find the original marriage certificate.

Can anyone help me? thank you in advance

[christanel]

Welcome to the British-Genealogy forums.

I took a quick look but haven't seen anything yet.

I am sure others will be along soon to help out

Christina

[janbooth]

Hello and welcome to the Forum.

FindmyPast, which is a pay per view site, has the actual British India Office Marriage image dated 4 May 1833 at Calcutta for James Henry FREDERICK & Maria Emilie GERVAIN. I cannot give you full details, I'm afraid, because of their terms and conditions, but it does not mention the names of their parents although it does give other information.

IGI Family Search, which is a free site, does give burials of 3 children of a J H FREDERICK in Fort William, Bengal, namely John James FREDERICK in 1847 aged 9, Emma FREDERICK in 1846 aged 1 and Ellen FREDERICK in 1844 aged 0.

Could this be your James Henry FREDERICK in the 1851 census of St George Hanover Square, London, England (ref HO107/1476, folio 68, page 43) living at 40 Albermarle Street:

James Henry FREDERICK Head Married 52 Silk Merchant? Camberwell Surrey
Amelia do Wife do 37 Milliner & Hat Maker France
plus many Assistants and Servants

The above census record details would fit in with the Marriage record on FindmyPast.

Janet

[leonard24]

Thank you for your answers,

Yes I think it's him,

According to the marriage certificate of his son (my ancestor) Henry Fandon Frédérick himself born in Calcutta on 31/10/1841, his father Jacques Henri or James Henry merchant, was born in Sylhet India.
I found his death certificate, 11/08/1867 in Paris 02 to 68 years.

I asked for a marriage certificate on http://www.gro.gov.uk, I do not know if they will find it :)

It is possible that his father is English, I would find! :)

thank you

[leonard24]

I went on findmypast, I subscribed starter a month but impossible to open the image I suppose it takes the prenium ...
$ 10 for nothing, They abuse

[Mona]

Try the British Library India Office, free transcripts

This is the search results for GERVAIN, includes death of Marie's brother, click on name for details

http://indiafamily.bl.uk/ui/NonTabBriefDisplay.aspx?SearchType=QuickSearch

[leonard24]

Thank you for this new track (born in Mauritius) I will look.

I rectify for findmypast, it offered me 20 credit to see the picture :)

[geneius]

Masonic records, could your man be a Wine Merchant?
United Grand Lodge of England Freemason Membership Registers, 1751-1921 ( ancestry)
Name: Henry James Frederick
Initiation Date: 16 Oct 1833
Year Range: 1813-1836
Profession: Wine Merchant
Lodge: Marine Lodge*
Lodge Location: Calcutta
Folio Number: 257 A Lodge Number: 410A
B Lodge Number: 282B
*https://www.hrionline.ac.uk/lane/record.php?ID=1200


Some of the family, do you have them ALL?
Name: Sophia Caroline Frederick
Birth Date: 6 Mar 1834
Baptism Date: 15 Jun 1834
Birth Date: 1834
Burial Date: 24 Sep 1835
Burial Place: Fort William, Bengal, India
Father: Henry James Frederick

Caroline Sophia Frederick
Age: 18
Birth Date: 1835
Marriage Date: 28 Jan 1853
Marriage Place: Kidderpore, Bengal, India
Father: James Henry Frederick
Spouse: James Page Higgins
FHL Film Number: 498991

Name: Emily Frederick
Birth Date: 30 Apr 1836
Baptism Date: 12 Jun 1836
Baptism Place: Calcutta, Bengal, India
Father: Henry James Frederick
Mother: Maria Emily

Name: Henry Fandon Frederick
Birth Date: 31 Oct 1841
Baptism Date: 9 Jan 1842

[leonard24]

Thank you for the information but I do not understand everything, james henry F was registered in a maconic lodge in Calcutta?

On the other hand I have advanced on his wife Emilie Gervain, I have clues:

Http://image.noelshack.com/files/2016/51/1482355549-mariage-frederick-inde.png
Http://image.noelshack.com/files/2016/51/1482355556-piste3333.png
Http://image.noelshack.com/files/2016/51/1482356012-zaza.png

[leonard24]

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/cd58a2b3-203d-4802-b1ef-94dbcd744e92.png

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/932095e3-9e98-4a52-980b-549be9941d4f.png

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/ede2688f-f838-47e5-a070-e5e6f0fc9e09.png

[leonard24]

Antoine Francois SAINTE :
Candle merchant but I do not understand everything



https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/359927c4-4fd2-4044-bc6b-d7a36622ac00.png

[geneius]

First comment about the marriage certificate. The marriage was under Licence and NOT Banns. In the UK Banns are usually called in the 3 weeks prior to marriage in both the bride & bridegrooms parish to see if anyone objects etc. The alternative is to apply for a licence and making a formal declaration. Sometimes there is additional information given about parents age where living etc.


Premier commentaire sur le certificat de mariage. Le mariage était sous Licence et NON Banns. Dans le Royaume-Uni Banns sont généralement appelés dans les 3 semaines avant le mariage dans la paroisse de mariée et mariés pour voir si quelqu'un objets etc L'alternative est de demander une licence et faire une déclaration formelle. Parfois il ya des informations supplémentaires données sur l'âge

[geneius]

#8
Masonic records, could your man be a Wine Merchant?
United Grand Lodge of England Freemason Membership Registers, 1751-1921 ( ancestry)
Name: Henry James Frederick
Initiation Date: 16 Oct 1833
Year Range: 1813-1836
Profession: Wine Merchant
Lodge: Marine Lodge*
Lodge Location: Calcutta
Folio Number: 257 A Lodge Number: 410A
B Lodge Number: 282B
*https://www.hrionline.ac.uk/lane/record.php?ID=1200

It looks as if several members of your family were 'Lodge members'

Il semble que plusieurs membres de votre famille étaient des "membres du Lodge"

2 liens dans une tentative d'expliquer Masons / Lodges

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonic_lodge
http://www.masonic-lodges.com/masons.html

[leonard24]

Very interesting but I can not find a name on hrionline.ac.uk. Or am I doing something wrong?

Should it be initiated? I want to know more :)

[geneius]

Antoine Francois SAINTE :
Candle merchant but I do not understand everything
https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/359927c4-4fd2-4044-bc6b-d7a36622ac00.png

The date of the Will is 6th July 1857.
This appears to be part of an application to administer the Estate

That the abovenamed Francois Antoine Sainte who was in his life time and at the time of his death a Christian Inhabitant and who carried on the business of a Candle Manufacturer at Cossipore near Calcutta in the twenty four Pergunnah hath lately departed this life at Cossipore aforesaid leaving property and effects within the Calcutta Jurisdiction of the Honourable Court to be administered unto and having as your Petitioner is informed and verily believes made his last Will and Testament
In writing bearing date sixth day of July in the year of out Lord One thousand Eight Hundred and fifty seven which is annexed and marked as Exhibited A to the Affidavit hereto annexed and is therefpre appointed the Administrator General of Bengal for the time being Executor

The best translation I can get!

La date du testament est le 6 juillet 1857.
Cela semble faire partie d'une demande d'administration de la succession

Que l'abovenamed François Antoine Sainte qui était dans son temps de la vie et au moment de sa mort un habitant chrétien et qui a porté sur les affaires d'un fabricant de bougie à Cossipore près de Calcutta dans les vingt-quatre Pergunnah a récemment quitté cette vie à Cossipore Les biens et les effets dans la juridiction de Calcutta de l'Honorable Cour d'être administré et ayant comme votre pétitionnaire est informé et croit vraiment fait son dernier testament
Par écrit datant du sixième jour du mois de juillet de l 'année du Seigneur mil huit cent cinquante - sept qui est annexé et marqué comme exposé A de l' Affidavit ci - joint annexé et est là nommé Administrateur Général du Bengale pour l '

[geneius]

Very interesting but I can not find a name on hrionline.ac.uk. Or am I doing something wrong?

Should it be initiated? I want to know more :)

You need to enter Marine Lodge and the number 282b. It is the history of that particular LOdge

[leonard24]

Yes I fall on the image of your link but I can not find the history.

Do you find his son or other information?

[geneius]

England, Alien Arrivals, 1810-1811, 1826-1869
Name: Antoine Sainte
Port of Arrival: Southampton, England
Arrival Date: 18 Feb 1845
Port of Departure: Alexandria, Egypt
Ship: Liverpool
Country of Origin/Native of: France
Described as a Merchant

I have now found the date of death was 6 July 1857

An application to administer the Estate was made by Charles Swinton HOGG esquire Barrister at Law and was granted 4 June 1858

The will mentions a brother Paul Auguste Sainte, there are children and a wife, but names are not recorded. The estate accounts are on line at FMP Findmypast

J'ai trouvé la date du décès le 6 juillet 1857

Une demande d'administration de la succession a été faite par Charles Swinton HOGG écuyer Barrister à Law et a été accordé le 4 juin 1858

La volonté mentionne un frère Paul Auguste Sainte, il ya des enfants et une femme, mais les noms ne sont pas enregistrés. Les comptes immobiliers sont en ligne à FMP Findmypast


Name: Paul Auguste Sainte
Birth Date: 10 Janv. 1850 (10 Jan 1850)
Birth Place: Calcutta, Indre-et-Loire

Paris, France & Vicinity Marriage Banns, 1860-1902
Name: Paul Auguste Sainte
Marriage Bann Date: 15 nov. 1874
Father's name: Antoine François Sainte
Mother's name: Catherine Joséphine Delbovier
Spouse's Name: Eugenie Marie TAY

It looks as if Antoine left children under the age of 21 Paul would have been 7 years old.

FIBIS has several entry for SAINTE relayed to Antoine.

I am going to bed now nite:Yawn:

[geneius]

Couldn't resist
Paris, France & Vicinity Marriages, 1700-1907
Catherine Joséphine Delbovier
Marriage Date: 29 juin 1843 (29 Jun 1843)
Spouse's Name: Antoine Fois Sainte

[leonard24]

Wedding of Henri Fandon FREDERICK and Emilie Joséphine SAINTE
https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/5721636f-2e04-4358-b13d-039a6441206e.png

Emilie Joséphine SAINTE, fille majeur de Antoine Francois SAINTE décédé en la dite ville de Calcutta le 31/05/1848 et de Catherine DELBOVIER son épouse décédé près de la meme ville à Cassipore le 16/05/1854.
Francois Antoine Sainte aieul paternel de l'épouse décédé à Montmartre le 27/10/1847, Marie Madeleine SAVY son épouse et aieul paternel de l'épouse, décédé suivant acte déposé.
L'épouse déclare avec serment qu'elle ignore le lieu du décès de ses aieuls maternels ainsi que celui de leurs dernier domicile.

Death of James Henry FREDERICK

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/1e1627b9-b4dc-4678-8cb6-b240891acf48.png

[leonard24]

Yes but I can not consult the act of marriage on the internet, but I go to Paris next week I will try to go see

[leonard24]

Hello everyone, I still have not found the parents of james henry but i have new clues !



https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/35d2b8d9-ff38-4343-845b-3d0a6767beae.png


It is written "born in camberwell" and "born in the county of surrey" yet it is two different place no?

[elsinore]

It is written "born in camberwell" and "born in the county of surrey" yet it is two different place no?

It is correct Leonard.:smile5:

Originally, Camberwell parish formed part of Brixton in Surrey. In 1899 Camberwell was removed from Surrey to form part of the County of London. So at the time of the 1851 Census, it was correct to be born in Camberwell in Surrey.

Peter

[christanel]

There has been a second thread started about James Henry Frederick Here (https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/89686-James-Henry-Frederick) so to avoid confusion I have locked it.
Any new information can be posted here. Thanks.
Christina

[leonard24]

Hello I made a new thread because I found that he was born in Camberwel.

I thought I could find how to look at the birth archives but I realized that here we only do internet research.

Never mind

[geneius]

#25

I thought I could find how to look at the birth archives but I realized that here we only do internet research.

James Henry Frederick was born before the introduction of UK Birth Marriage and Death certificates which were introduced on 1 July 1837.

Your source of information becomes Parish Registers ( PR) many of which have been digitalised by the free site familysearch. You can order the relevant films and view them at a family history centre near to you. Noting the details as recorded by the officiating minister. Those records not readily available are non conformist records. Some are just coming on line now...these at Quaker / Methodist /RC records.

You know JHF was in the UK in 1851, he is recorded on the Census, I did note his children were not included

According to the census JHF was born 1799 circa Camberley Surrey

Creating a Timeline

1799 Born UK
1827 Henry James Frederick b 1799 of 3 Billiter Street Lodge Honor and Generosity
Henry James Frederick
*
16 Oct 1833 Henry James Frederick Marine Lodge Calcutta Wine Merchant

1833 marriage in India, marriage on line at FMP. The marriage was by
Licence not Banns, you need to source the Licence

1834 birth of Sophia Caroline India father desc as shopkeeper
1835 death of Sophia Caroline India
1836 birth Emily India
14837 re joined listed as Henry John Marine Lodge Calcutta Merchant


1840 birth Caroline India
1841 birth Henry Farndon India

1851 UK 1851 UK Census ( no children)
HO107 Piece 1476 Folio 68 Page 43
Saint George Hanover Square
James Henry Frederick 52 silk merchant born Camberwell, Surrey
Amelia Frederick 37
+’staff’

1852 birth Henrietta
1853 marriage Caroline Sophia India
1865 marriage Henry F in France
1866 Baptism of Henrietta India
1870 marriage Henrietta

From FIBIS
Deaths as reported in 'Domestic Occurrences' in the Times of India 1895 editions.
Surname Frederick
Given name(s) James Henry
Place Howrah
Year 1895
month Oct
day 29
Register Entry Oct 29th at Howrah James Henry Frederick aged 89 years
Year 1895
Date 4 Nov

Your man seems to have spent a large part of his life in India, the 1851 census entry is surprising, was it a business venture, looking at the type of persons in the household?

Most of the originals are available on FMP

https://familysearch.org/locations/centerlocator

[elsinore]

Your man seems to have spent a large part of his life in India, the 1851 census entry is surprising, was it a business venture, looking at the type of persons in the household?


1851 was the year of the Great Exhibition. Perhaps an excuse for an ambitious merchant looking to take advantage by opening a shop on one of Mayfair's most fashionable streets, selling fabrics and making dresses and hats for some of London's most affluent residents and visitors?

Peter

[leonard24]

What is bizarre is that he is supposed to be in London in 1851 but on fibis we see that he left Calcutta in February 1852 to Southampton.


https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/b4c66479-e26b-4336-985c-e671938a703a.png

[leonard24]

There are not the first names but if it is them, they passed their lives at sea


https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/aa977730-9ab5-4366-89c6-ea0d9e444b2e.png

[leonard24]

I wonder if it is not him

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/cb90e2f8-3226-47b1-818d-6ae0705e3f45.png

[geneius]

#30

Your man JHF has been consistent with his birth year as 1799! He also seems to alternate between JH & HJ

Have you looked at the EIC records as there are at least 2 entry that relate to HJ Ferderick

Maybe mistaken but I do not think you have this...

Cemetery South Park Street
Surname Frederick
Forename(s) Sophia Caroline
Year of Death 1835
Inscription
Sacred to the Memory of Sophia Caroline, the beloved and only child of Henry James and Marie Emelie Frederick, died 23rd Sept. 1835, aged 1 year, 6 months and 17 days.

Entry from Bengal Deaths 1847
Surname Frederick
First name(s) Amelia
Location Kidderpore
18 Aug 1846
Full Entry
Frederick, Amelia, d. of J.H. at Kidderpore, Aug. 18 1846
Edition Date October 27th

Cemetery South Park Street
Surname Frederick
Forename(s) Caroline
Year of Death 1841
Inscription
Sacred to the Memory of Sophia Caroline, the fourth beloved child of Henry James and Marie Emelie Frederick, died 6th Feb. 1841, aged 4 months and 15 days.

[geneius]

I wonder if it is not him

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/cb90e2f8-3226-47b1-818d-6ae0705e3f45.png

Full entry reads:
Henry Frederick
Birth year 1801
Birth date 01 Jul 1801
Place Globe Ally Rotherhithe Surrrey
Denomination Dissenters
Father's George
Mother's Jane d/o James Drummond
County London
Reg'd 23 October 1817
Witnesses: Mary Luck & Mary Oates

[geneius]

1850 Westminster Rates

40 Albermarle Street ( The address as per 1851 census taken 30 March ) and what looks like Stafford Street underneath.