My Dublin grandmother Thompson Devilliers

[belladonnas]

Hi Im looking for my grandmother's birth certificate she was born 1863 and the records start in 1864.

Frances Thompson Devilliers born In Dublin in 1863
She married my Grandfather Robert Stanley Jackson In Cape Town, were she had 4 sons one of which my father.
She Died on 25th August 1931 in Cape Town

I would appreciate any help that you may give me in finding her. I assume Thompson was her mothers maiden name as its an unusual second name to have.
I have searched the sites that I know of and come up empty. Shes listed under ancestry.com but only with the information given above.

[christanel]

Welcome to Brit-Gen belladonnas :smile:

I can't see anything for your grandmother either. Not even on ancestry.

Do you have her marriage record?
I can see her death certificate on familysearch.org but that is no help with parents.

Christina

[belladonnas]

thanks the info I have is just her marriage to her spouses.
1. to Melville Jackson probably in London
2. Her marriage to my grandfather in Cape Province South Africa , Robert Stanley Jackson Lived in Beaufort West

I wonder if the birth date is listed wrong?

[belladonnas]

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/61996ec9-969f-4165-9479-f71661caba74.png



her first child Rodney my uncle was born in 1918. so that makes her rather old to have a first child if she was born in 1863?

[belladonnas]

Im looking at these dates seems rather strange her birthdate is so early 1863. her husband (my grandfather) was born in 1890 and died in 1970 . If she had her first child in 1918? that would mean she married him in the year before that 1917 1918 right.

It would mean she was well into her fifties before she had her first child and then went on to have three more? four in total. the last one being my father Dudley Devilliers born in 1925. These are definite dates.
So If you do the maths.

1863 -1925. that makes her 62 when my dad was born .. seems strange.
another definite date is she died in 1931 when my father was 7, that seems to add up with the story told to me by my father.
My grandfather then remarried as was the custom then.
I think her birthdate is too early, that is not right.

[belladonnas]

I was correct that date was was wrong she was actually born in 1894 . heres her precious gravestone and her beautiful picture with her cousin Queenie, given to me by my father ( her youngest son) and cherished by me all these years xxx Now we will research. Im new to this, so your help is invaluable and thankyou for the warm welcome youve given me.
https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/35dcbec8-164d-4071-a819-cde9198c40be.jpeg

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/e70f2a4f-9cb7-464f-9a15-a71868a8d2a6.jpeg

[belladonnas]

Still need help or suggestions! please I tried the new birthdate 1894 on irish geneology.ie still comes up blan.

[stepives]

I can find no birth registration for Frances Thompson Devilliers in Ireland.

There are 415 females with the first name of Frances in Dublin in the 1901 Irish census, and no Devilliers. 553 Frances in Dublin in the 1911 Irish census. but no Devilliers.

Are you sure she was born Dublin, or even Ireland.

Was she adopted by a Devilliers, and her birth name was Thompson.

I can't find anything for her. It may well be the spelling of the surname, but even with a 'wild card', I can't see anything that may fit.

Sorry.

Steve.:)

[belladonnas]

thanks Steve,
I hadnt thought of that she may well have been born a Thompson adopted by a Devilliers. how would I go about finding her birth certificate in 1894 ? on which site.
I did find one Devilliers male in Dublin a Duke I believe ??
Another option is that Queenie Devilliers pictured above with Frances, wasnt her cousin, but in fact her sister in the adopting family?? wow this is a whole world of digging. Thanks in advance for any light you could shed on this Im desperate

[stepives]

What is her fathers name on her marriage certificate. Did her father leave a Will.

If she was born a Thompson, and 'adopted', then you have hit a brickwall I'm afraid. As there are a lot of female Thompsons born the same year. No christian name given.

Adoptions back then were very informal.

What written evidence have you, that she was born in Dublin

[belladonnas]

Steve I dont know, because I dont have a marriage certificate or in fact any certificate pertaining to her. Her death certificate In South Africa is appently somewhere online, but I cant find it. her date on death on Ancestry.com however agrees with the gravestone date pictured. Will a death certificate list her place of birth? The information that exisits on Ancestry lists only her name and her place of birth as Dublin Ireland (much research was done on this a book of my grandfathers family was published, so Im sure the info is correct. The date nof birth however Was wron. her date if death is accurate. The ancestry enty is pictured above too. Thanks.

[stepives]

I've looked at a few of those trees, and there appears to be no documentation. Do not use other peoples trees as fact, unless there is a paper trial of actual documentation. Contact the tree owners, and see what they have to say.

If it's not verified on a paper document, it didn't happen.

If her date of birth was wrong, that is a big mistake. So there could well be other errors. Some of it may be family folk lore, and assumed as fact. It may well all be correct, with just that one error.

I've no idea how to get certs from South Africa, maybe you should post in another forum, for South Africa.

[christanel]

There is a submitted family tree on familysearch.org which has Frances, her husbands and children on it but no date or place of birth for her. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3Z4N-X8T

Her death certificate is also on familysearch.org Here (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22frances%20thompson%22~%20% 2Bsurname%3Ajackson~%20%2Bdeath_place%3A%22south%2 0africa%22~)

The reference to her birth as Dublin 1863 shows up in a google search as being in a private tree on ancestry and is obviously wrong on the birthdate so as Steve says can be wrong on birth place.
Christina

[Mona]

On the death certificate, her birthplace is given as Cape Province.

In 1901 Irish census, the only Devilliers in Dublin is an Isaac, a 19 yr old medical student from South Africa. Religion, dutch reform.

[christanel]

On the 1901 England and Wales census RG13 Piece 1493 Folio 39 Page 27there is a Frances L De Villiers born 1883 orange State Cape Town with her parents Melius born Saxony (Kingdom State), Craugs Free and Adelaide born Ireland. All the children born Orange Free State. But the middle initial for Frances is wrong and the age is 10 years out.
I can't see them in the 1911 UK census.


NO you can forget her, her baptism is on family search.org with a middle name of Lilian and she may be the one who's form of registration of a death is on familysearch.org in 1902

Christina

[belladonnas]

Thanks Christina,
I was hoping a death certificate might list her place of birth, apparently not, record keeping in the 1900s seems to have been very lax. I have the same problem with my maternal grandmothers birth in Sussex, all eight brothers and sisters recorded well, but hers not. Pretty much there are holes in lots of things. Im reasonably certain she was born in Dublin, its a strange choice to pick it out of a hat.. when there are many England births in the Jackson line and in South Africa.
If she was born in South Africa it would be stated and most certainly I could find her birth records. It is possible she was adopted, Im not ruling that out. That may well be why she retained the name Thompson in her name and Devilliers.. which she passed on to my father. and it formed his middle name officially.
Could anyone help me with how to search adoption records in Ireland. Or could someone with more skill than me search for Frances Thompson born in Ireland. in 1894.

[Mona]

I was hoping a death certificate might list her place of birth, ....

It DOES state her place of birth. Look at the image, not just the short transcript, on family search. Item 6: Birthplace. Cape Province.

[belladonnas]

thanks Mona, I saw that, it seems to be a possible assumption. The Cape province is thousands of square kilometres incompasing hundreds of cities, It would be like stating you were born in England, without the birthplace? and why would the birthdate be an estimate date on such an important document as a death certificate, why is there no birth certificate for her in South Africa. when on that same family tree the birth certificates and marriage certificates in South Africa with an exact place of birth, date back to 1700s ? Its possible, but strange that no birth record exsists for her in South Africa.

[Mona]

Civil registration for births did not begin in Cape Province until 1895. The document states her age, it does not ask for date of birth. This is sure looking for a needle in a haystack of baptisms!

[christanel]

I was doing a bit of searching and came across this book in google books. Unfortunately not available as an e -book.
The Jacksons of Nelspoort, Cape of Good Hope, and their descendants
This was the snippet that came up in the search.
https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/dca6440d-2447-4ea7-915a-b1eacfed30ae.jpg

So who was Thompson Joost and why did the author think he was related to Frances?
Christina

[belladonnas]

Well spotted Christina , I dont have the book, I was away in Europe when the author Oswald Jackson interviewed everybody for the book. My sister has a copy and My father and all his decendents including myself are in it. I have visited and photographed Grootfontein farm. Unfortunately all the brothers have passed now. I will try to borrow her book when Im next home. It was for that reason that I thought surely after the extensive research done they would have listed her as SA born.This Irish birth didnt come from nowhere! Im like a dog with a bone now, hope we can find the answers.

[belladonnas]

Mona actually the last thing written on the bottom is the year of birth and it states 1896 (estimated) thats why I commented on it.

[Mona]

William Johannes thompson Jooste, died in 1941 age 77 years, in Beaufort West. Birthplace: Cape Province.

Death certificate on family search (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-PY9S-7B?i=235&wc=Q81G-HQ2%3A139967901%2C140070101%3Fcc%3D1779109&cc=1779109)

[christanel]

William Johannes thompson Jooste, died in 1941 age 77 years, in Beaufort West. Birthplace: Cape Province.

Death certificate on family search (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-PY9S-7B?i=235&wc=Q81G-HQ2%3A139967901%2C140070101%3Fcc%3D1779109&cc=1779109)

So that gives him a birth date around 1864. Again a stretch of common parentage with a difference of 30 years between W J T's birth and Frances' but could be an uncle, or possibly father?
Christina

[belladonnas]

thanks for that Christina.. I cant seem to find stuff on familysearch. Possibly her uncle .. because if it was her father why was she a deVilliers? any other Thompson Joostes on family search?

[christanel]

thanks for that Christina.. I cant seem to find stuff on familysearch. Possibly her uncle .. because if it was her father why was she a deVilliers? any other Thompson Joostes on family search?

She could have been illegitimate so had her mother's maiden name as her surname and the Thompson given as a middle name to acknowledge her birth father. Other reasons too I'm sure. Her parents may have given her the middle name Thompson as an expression of gratitude or admiration for W J T Jooste (or an other).

Christina

[christanel]

thanks the info I have is just her marriage to her spouses.
1. to Melville Jackson probably in London
2. Her marriage to my grandfather in Cape Province South Africa , Robert Stanley Jackson Lived in Beaufort West

Ok back to basics.

1. Do you have your father's birth certificate? Is this where you got the information for Frances' maiden name?
2. How do you know Frances was married to a Melville Jackson? Marriage record sited? Any children known to this marriage?
There is no marriage in England or Wales showing for a Melville Jackson to a Frances (?)
I see the baptism of Robert Stanley Jackson on familysearch.org 30 March 1890 and the birth of his daughter Dorette Standon 13 April 1936. Mother Katharina Primadonna. What aren't showing are his marriage records to your grandmother and Katharina

Christina

[belladonnas]

Well Christina a whole new scenario presented itself via my hints in Ancestry.com this morning.


I will paste it here. I see where the date of birth came from and the Dublin birth. I do know my fater and his brother were not very kindly when mentioning the melville jacksons and I also remember my father mentioning Lilian (as a troublemaker in the family). So she really was married before and she did have two other children. Can you help me unpick this ball of wool. Ill attach what came up on Ancestry

[belladonnas]

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/422c790e-7bc7-4115-9804-267d7741af88.png

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/b8961bab-9567-4f31-b833-557ed7109912.png

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/0b719011-5f80-40ad-922f-d573569ea263.png

[belladonnas]

Can you give me the link to Robert Stanleys baptism. Katerina Primdonna was his second wife after Frances died. their only daughter was Dorette. I also would like to find Robert stanleys marriage cert to Frances because that would have details.

[belladonnas]

back to basics: My fathers birth certificate I have seen he and his brothers are not in question his actual name is Dudley Devilliers Jackson every legal document I have of his has his name like this including my birth cerificate. His mother Frances clearly wanted her birth surname to live on

[Mona]

I think you should disregard all those "hints" from ancestry.

Robert White Melville Jackson married Frances Mary McTernan in Enniskillen, Ireland in 1887. He was in the army, so probably stationed there. He may be related to Robert Stanley Jackson who married your grandmother. They are a generation apart in age.

Frances Mary Jackson is not the Frances Thompson Devilliers Jackson that died in 1931 in SA.

The image of the marriage cert is on irishgenealogy.ie in civil records collection.

Not all South African records are on line. There are many on familysearch that are not yet indexed, but can be browsed, such as the Dutch Reform church registers, but you need to know what town to look in. Robert was baptised in a Methodist church.

https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1392488

also check out cyndi's list (http://www.cyndislist.com/south-africa/)for guidance

Good Luck!!

PS Perhaps this thread should be moved to South Africa forum ?

[belladonnas]

Mona So the two children born to Frances Devilliers Jackson ...the Whyte Melville Jacksons where did they come from ? If Im to disregard all the info from Ancestry. Its possible that Frances Jackson was confused with the Irish born Frances hence the too early birthday, But it doesnt help me with her first marriage and her origins.

[belladonnas]

I dont want to move this thread. away from Dublin to South Africa until I have eliminated the Irish connection. There could be others who are researching the same link in Dublin in this family tree, and they would look here on this forum as I did. Particularly as an entire book was published on this family, with many birth links in the past going back even one or two generations to France and England, My great great grandfather was From France a Hugenot. it needs to be here for the moment. Many families have family trees that encompass two continients.

[Mona]

Lillian Valentina Mary Jackson IS NOT the daughter of your grandmother. She was born in 1892, before your grandmother was born! According to the 1911 census in London, she was born in Malta.
People put stuff on Ancestry without any verification, and people get muddled together. Two different families are getting fused as one.
You should only go by what can be documented.

[belladonnas]

Mona and Christina , my thinking is she her niece perhaps? I dont go by whats on ancestry. If I did I wouldnt be on this forum, im asking questions based on what I have already gleaned first hand from my father.

I think thats what any invesigation entails, not disgregarding anything that doesnt make sense and saying its all garbage. thats why Im doing my own research.
Long before ancestry.com exsisted my father and my uncle spoke to me about the Melville Jacksons in the Beaufort West area. They could be cousins or related or more I dont know yet, but thankyou for your help so far all of those who have commented. I am starting from what I know to be fact and working backwards asking questions and eliminating as I get answers.

[almach]

Can you give me the link to Robert Stanleys baptism. Katerina Primdonna was his second wife after Frances died. their only daughter was Dorette.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2HRR-NN9

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2HRT-94K

[almach]

I don't know if this marriage pertains to your ancestry, but thought it worth mentioning. Herman E DeVilliers/Minnie C Thompson. 23 July 1894, Fillmore Minnesota.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-YPJ6-2?i=560&wc=MRJK-K68%3A146205901%3Fcc%3D1803974&cc=1803974

The couple are on the US 1900 census in Minnesota with daughter Lilian age 7yrs. Minnie died in 1904. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=116878736&ref=acom

ETA : forget the above as Lillian is still in Minnesota in 1920.

[christanel]

This (http://web.archive.org/web/20081208085144/http:/www.genealogyworld.net/Tracing/tracing_2.html)research guide by Rosemary Dixon is very informative. The link to it is on this page (https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/South_Africa_Genealogy) where there is a lot of useful general information regarding South Africa.
Christina

Added: Katharina Primadonna FEREIRA 1911 - 1980 according to a family tree Here (http://www.kempfamilyhistory.com/family.php?familyID=F20745&tree=adkemp)
They don't have any information on Frances other than her death.

Added: Robert Selwyn Jackson 1921 - 2002 married Elizabeth Aling Hamilton MELVILLE 1923 - 1989 Father James Hamilton Melville?

[belladonnas]

Thanks Christina, for your time patience and passion, thanks to everyone else too who has contributed.
I have just had an hour long skype call with my cousin in Johannesburg the eldest of three sons. of Robert Selwyn Jackson you listed above ( Melvilee was his mothers maiden name) and we cleared up a lot of things. His brother the second son has done an extensive family tree of both the Devilliers side and the Jackson side which I will go through with him tomorrow.
my first cousin that I spoke to tonight cleared up the Melville-Jackson crossover as an error of Ancestry.com hence an Irish birth which is not true.. My cousin will send me a scanned copy of the book by OA Jackson The Jacksons of Nelspoort containing generations of facinating characters, including Sir John Molteno Goverener of the Cape my Grandfathers cousin and bus parner. (but I knew this all already).
When I have all the details tomorrow I will fill you in as Im sure by now you want answers.
Tonight suffice to say that Frances Thomson Devillers was one of 9 Devilliers children . She was the youngest and her parents are both well Known settler family Hugenots as were the Jacksons. from St Helier in France two generations back. Both her parents are named, my cousin will share that with me in the tree he will send tomorrow. I Guess I should have bought the book! and stayed off ancestry.com !!��������
Their marriage date Frances Devilliers and Robert Stanley Jackson was 1917 when she was a young lady, in Beaufort West. There is a wedding photo too that Ill be getting from the book.
So the Frances deVilliers puzzle is solved and now I can share it with you all tomorrow and get her Cape birth certificate.

I am grateful that I got to meet you lovely people on the forum here under the "Irish Banner" Thanks for sharing your knowlege and hopefully in the future I can help someone else on the South Africa settler families on that forum. Ours is certainly a rich and large family tree and makes facinating reading.
Wishing you all a goodnight till tomorrow!
A

[stepives]

Well done, and good luck to you.

I suppose that means, I can stop looking in Ireland.|woohoo|

Steve.:svengo:

[belladonnas]

yes Steve you can stop looking... Christina and Mona Look at the handsome couple ... you can read the two extracts from the book attached. The Jacksons of Nelspoort. The extract will answer some of the questions we asked about Frances. my father Dudley is the one in the foreground with his hands folded on each other. thanks for your help and enjoy the story. Next is my mums family tree luckily thats all in Sussex!



https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/eab7bdd6-c4ac-4995-ac0a-bd009b37e5d1.jpeg



https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/e34a18e1-3d67-4bbc-9151-89c25dcf774d.png

[almach]

An interesting read belladonnas, so pleased you've now got some ancestry background.


Next is my mums family tree luckily thats all in Sussex!

Promise us you won't take online trees as fact, once bitten twice shy, eh!

Post what you know about your Mum's ancestry and we'll do our best to help you.

[belladonnas]

no more Ancestry hints for me, the biggest problem is that other cant be bothered to correct error when they encounter them. Also within families theres a certain amount of not wanting to share information, that they have gone to the effort of collecting. When the next census is freely available in UK it will make thinks easier

[geneius]

no more Ancestry hints for me, the biggest problem is that other cant be bothered to correct error when they encounter them.

That is why most of the researchers do not use trees as other than last ditch attempts in research.

There is a tree connected to one of my research names that has a 200 year gap in it but the owner will not recognise this her research is correct...my tree therefore stops at this point, with the help of property deeds and trust papers found I have bridged that 200 year period...