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sky25832
04-07-2016, 12:41 AM
I am unsure if I have the right person or not.

I am looking for a John McKernan; birth date and place in Ireland unknown. BUT I do have a record of a John McKernan, aged 5 in an 1821 Irish census listed in County Fermanagh, Aghalurcher Parish. From what I understand, there are no Baptism records in County Fermanagh at this time so I donít have much to go on as far as birth dates or places go. What I do know (and have confirmation on) is that John emigrated to England sometime before 1838. In July of 1838, he married Julia Lanigan in Manchester, Lancashire, England. If the marriage information is correct (and it appears to be) and the 1821 census data is correct (I am hoping) then John would have been 22 at the time of his marriage, which sounds about right. John had a son, Peter McKernan, born in 1846 who was married in 1875 in Manchester and it was noted at his wedding that John was deceased at that time.

Any help in verifying if these are the same person or that there my be another John McKernan that fits these data points better would be very helpful. Thank you.

Dennis McKernan:smash:

gortonboy
04-07-2016, 2:07 AM
Hi,,,do you have Johns marriage certificate,,or a transcript of it?

gortonboy
04-07-2016, 2:11 AM
there is also a birth of a Catherine McKERNAN in 1839....mothers maiden name is transribed as LANAGHAN.

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1839
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
MCKERNAN Catharine Saint George Archives+, Manchester Central Library LANAGHAN STG/6/44

ALSO

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1847
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
MCKERNAN Margaret Saint George Archives+, Manchester Central Library LANNAGAN

gortonboy
04-07-2016, 2:18 AM
THERE IS THIS DEATH


First name(s) JULIA
Last name MCKERNAN
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1819
Age 50
Death quarter 2
Death year 1869
District MANCHESTER
County Lancashire
Volume 8D
Page 200


she is in a common grave in Philips park cemetery

Cemetery Section Grave Position Deceased
Philips Park Cemetery ERoman Catholic 789 1 Jane Frances Durham
Philips Park Cemetery ERoman Catholic 789 2 Catherine Fleming
Philips Park Cemetery ERoman Catholic 789 3 Richard Dolan
Philips Park Cemetery ERoman Catholic 789 4 Sarah Ann Burns
Philips Park Cemetery ERoman Catholic 789 5 Julia McKernan

gortonboy
04-07-2016, 2:24 AM
I know you have this..but posting so we can try and join the dots,,so to speak. :)

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1875
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
MCKERNAN Peter CARABINE Elizabeth Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Archives+, Manchester Central Library MCR_RM/

Baptism: 28 Nov 1875 St Joseph, Ancoats, Lancashire, England
Margarita Anna McKernon - filia Petri McKernon & Elizabeth (formerly Carabine)
Born: 10 Nov 1875
Godparents: Joannes McGee; Helena Paterson
Baptised by: P. N. Stephan
Register: Baptisms 1873 - 1883, Page 94
Source: Original Register at LRO Preston


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1878
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference

MCKERNAN John Saint George Archives+, Manchester Central Library CARRIBINE STG/151/15

gortonboy
04-07-2016, 2:40 AM
THE 1851 CENSUS- Julia is widowed by now....does this tally with what you know of Your McKernan family?

1851 census
Marshall Street, Manchester, Lancashire, England

Julia McKonon Head Widowed Female 38 1813 Bonnet Maker Ireland
Catherine McKonon Dau - b 1837 Scholar Lancashire, England
John McKonon Son - b 1838 Scholar -
Patrick McKonon Son - Male 8 1843 Scholar -
Phoebe McKonon Dau b 1845 Scholar -
Peter McKonon Son b 1846 Scholar -
Bridget Clary Lodger b 1811 Work In Factory Ireland
Julia Clary Dau/lod b 1836 Work In Factory Ireland

Dundee10
04-07-2016, 3:08 AM
Do you think that says Widow[ed]? Hard to see because of the condition of the record, but it doesn't look like the word as written further down that page and also on the next page. The 'W' in those and for the occupation 'Work in factory' are completely different.

gortonboy
04-07-2016, 3:22 AM
possible death for John {as transcribed}


First name(s) JOHN
Last name MCKERNEN
Gender Male
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year -
Age -
Death quarter 4
Death year 1848
District MANCHESTER
County Lancashire
Volume 20
Page 523

christanel
04-07-2016, 5:45 AM
Do you think that says Widow[ed]? Hard to see because of the condition of the record, but it doesn't look like the word as written further down that page and also on the next page. The 'W' in those and for the occupation 'Work in factory' are completely different.

I think it could be Mar (ried) comparing it with the record for Christopher Leonard further down the page.

Christina

Elwyn Soutter
04-07-2016, 8:29 AM
The name John McKernan is pretty common in Ireland. Looking at the 1901 Irish census there were 70 across Ireland. Bearing that in mind, I’d be cautious about assuming the 1821 Fermanagh census John is yours without some additional evidence.

As you have probably discovered, nearly all the Irish censuses pre 1901 were destroyed. All that remains are a few fragments, so finding just one John in Fermanagh doesn’t mean he was the only one in Ireland of roughly the right age. He almost certainly wasn’t. You are correct that there are hardly any RC parish records for Fermanagh in the 1820s. Aghalurcher’s records do not start till 1835, so if that is where he originated you are unlikely to find his baptism or parents names from that source. No easy way around that problem.

Ideally you need some information from English sources to point to where he originated eg occasionally you get more in a census for a place of birth than just “Ireland”; sometimes obituaries or gravestones reveal a person’s place of birth, or a mention in a will can give a clue. Finding your John’s origins won’t be easy I fear.

John’s 1838 English marriage cert should give you that John’s father’s name and occupation. Since you know the Aghalurcher John’s father’s name was Peter and he was a labourer, that may help decide whether you have found the right one in Ireland.

sky25832
04-07-2016, 12:58 PM
Hi,,,do you have Johns marriage certificate,,or a transcript of it?

I guess I didn't expect such prompt and amazing support. THANK YOU.
https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/0845dd86-0ac2-497b-bae5-18f56905ad44.jpg

I have tried to attach what I have for John's Marriage. It is a listing or an Index I believe. I know that my cousin in Toronto ordered a copy of the Marriage certificate and am waiting to hear back from her if she has received it or not.

I may need to contact you directly, via E-mail, to send you documentation as I'm not sure if you are getting it through this website. My direct E-mail address is lifeworks@oldsnet.ca - if you don't get this Index here, contact me direct and I will send it as an attachment directly to you.
And thank you for your assistance; you obviously know a LOT about genealogy!

Dennis

sky25832
04-07-2016, 1:12 PM
yes this is Julia Lanigan. We have verification of this through the Find a Grave memorial.

sky25832
04-07-2016, 1:25 PM
Hi Gortonboy - I am not sure about this birth record. All I have (via my cousin) about Julia's Birth is "Born about 1819 in Ireland". We are both operating from a Family History page left to us by an Aunt Mary; she wrote down what she knew of the family history in the 1970's and my cousin and I are proceeding from this document. Aunt Mary's notes just say about John and Julia "They were born in Ireland and emigrated to England. Do not know their Christian names".

sky25832
04-07-2016, 1:30 PM
This tallies with what I have been able to find.
https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/a791a271-05ec-4dfd-92ac-814fb9981d3d.jpg
It is a death record and it fits other timelines - but I would still like some other corroboration that this is our John. This is how my searches have gone to date - a snippet here, a record there, but no clear corroboration about him.

Elwyn Soutter
04-07-2016, 1:35 PM
Probably the cheapest source for a copy of the 1838 marriage is GRO in Southport, Lancs. They should charge £9.25 for a certificate.

The information they will need, apart from the couples names, is that the marriage was registered in Manchester Jul – Sept 1838 Volume 20, page 590.

Order using this link:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

sky25832
04-07-2016, 1:38 PM
Thanks for your input Elwyn

I agree that this is going to be difficult. I am kind of partial to the theory of McKernans coming from Fermanagh because I was having a Guinness in Dublin on the Sunday of your centenary, and I asked the people who were sitting next to me where they were from. Fermanagh as it turns out. I told them about my genealogy research and difficulties trying to find my great great grandfather McKernan; they laughed as BOTH their neighbors at home were McKernans! Other than this, Mystery John could be from anywhere in the north.

Dennis