Merchant Navy Military Service Records

[gengrant]

My Uncle James Thom Grant did his Military Service in the Merchant Navy. There is one entry for a James Thomas Grant b 1899 Aberdeenshire. I am sure that this is him,as the birth date and Aberdeen both fit, where would I be able to obtain his full record of Military Service

[Megan Roberts]

The National Archives have lots of research guides telling you what is available and where. The link below will take you to page showing guides for merchant navy & war:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/?research-category=military-and-maritime&sub-category%5B%5D=merchant-navy&sub-category%5B%5D=wars

[LOVAT#]

His CR10 card shows him on ss TUSCANY in 1921. No other personal MN records exist for this period so locating him via crew agreements is the only way to go. You would need to get hold of the crew agreement for TUSCANY official number 109650 for the year 1921. He should be listed as part of her crew showing details of where/when he signed on and off and importantly his previous ship should be mentioned. You can then obtain the crew agreement for his previous ship and work backwards and with a bit of luck find out some or all of his career at sea from 1921 backwords. The crew agreement for the ship is held at the Maritime History Archive in Canada - https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=109650.
Contact: https://www.mun.ca/mha/about.php. Any further service beyond 1921 will be more difficult to find unless he continued to serve into WW2.

Regards
Hugh

[Peter Goodey]

My Uncle James Thom Grant did his Military Service in the Merchant Navy

Surely the Merchant Navy was a reserved occupation and merchant seamen could not enrol in the military. All merchant seamen were civilians.

[gengrant]

It says United Kingdom, Merchant Navy Seamen Records event Type Military Service, Event Year Range 1918-1921 Event Place Aberdeenshire

[gengrant]

I have his crew records for both the TUSCANY and the LANCASHIRE but nothing of his previous records. The TUSCANY was his first ship in 1921.

[christanel]

Surely the Merchant Navy was a reserved occupation and merchant seamen could not enrol in the military. All merchant seamen were civilians.

This site explains it a little http://www.mna.org.uk/wp/veterans_badge/

Christina

[LOVAT#]

I have his crew records for both the TUSCANY and the LANCASHIRE but nothing of his previous records. The TUSCANY was his first ship in 1921.

Do you know when he came ashore? If he didn't serve in WW2 you won't find out anymore unless you have the name of a ship from a later date.

Regards
Hugh

[gengrant]

Hi Hugh,
He immigrated to New Zealand in 1927 as a passenger on the IONIC. He signed off on the LANCASHIRE 6/5/1922, as 8th Engineer, so there is a five year gap before he came to NZ. His C. R. 10. No. of Identity Certificate was 135399

[LOVAT#]

Hi Gen,
A difficult task. His last known service ended in 1922 so he may or may not have sailed in other ships up until going to NZ in 1927. On the crew agreements that you have is there a number above his name? For the time period you are interested in the ID or RS2 number is not really used but his discharge number may help. That is the number above his name in the agreement.
Regards
Hugh

[gengrant]

Hi Hugh,
His no. above his name in the TUSCANY is Dis A 1052732 and it is the same no. for the LANCASHIRE 1052732 in 1922

[LOVAT#]

Hi Gen,
You have obviously found his CR2 card. From looking at that I can tell you that he was not active in the MN from 1923. He joined LANCASHIRE in Feb 1922 the crew agreement will tell you when he left but I am confident he didn't serve in the MN after he left LANCASHIRE.

Regards
Hugh

[gengrant]

Hi Hugh,
He must have come ashore, his address was 22 Sedgley Avenue, Prestwich, Manchester. Thanks for all your help. Cant help wondering he work for those five years ?

[Megan Roberts]

I get a monthly newsletter from the National Archives. Today it arrives and starts of with "Explore our online merchant seamen and merchant shipping collections, as well as records of births, marriages and deaths at sea." It has a link to "Merchant seamen’s campaign medal records 1914-1918".

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/merchant-seamens-campaign-medal-records-1914-1918/?utm_source=The%20National%20Archives&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=6889204_March%202016%20enewsletter%20 quarantined%20customers%20%28batch%202%29&utm_content=Disco%3A%20Merchant%20seaman%20campaig n%20medals

You may have already found this, but if not .....

[timbo58]

Was he a RN gunner attached to the MN?

If not -how can he have a 'military' service record if he was Merchant navy?
Surely the MN is a civilian service?

[Peter Goodey]

Surely the MN is a civilian service?

I've made this point but he won't accept it.

I think he's seen something in FamilySearch which wrongly includes the words "military service".

[Megan Roberts]

The link I have given in #14 takes you to the National Archives description

Merchant seamen’s campaign medal records 1914-1918

which they describe as "These records consist of over 155,000 index cards recording the issue of the British War Medal and the Mercantile Marine Medal to merchant seamen and officers in the First World War. There is also a list of recipients of the Silver War Badge. You can search these records using Discovery."

Now the world "military" does not appear, but the words "war" and campaign" do, so at the very least the merchant navy were engaged in war service work. Indeed that is reinforced by the description provided by the National Archives for the different types of medals awarded to merchant navy personnel:

There were different qualifications for each type of medal:
Mercantile Marine Medal – awarded to those who served at sea for at least six months, and on at least one voyage through a danger zone
British War Medal -automatically awarded to all recipients of the Mercantile Marine Medal
Silver War Badge -awarded to those who were no longer fit for sea service


So maybe not military service but definitely war service.

[LOVAT#]

Now the world "military" does not appear, but the words "war" and campaign" do, so at the very least the merchant navy were engaged in war service work.


It depends where you get the link from - for example FMP give the link but their description gives the following: military, armed forces and conflict and this is where the original poster got their information from so is entitled to make the assumption that it was military service. Not everyone searching for information is an expert on such things.

This is just a common mistake made by such organisations ignorant of the role of the Merchant Navy during the World Wars.
Of course it was not military service they were a civilian service that supported the armed services as well as run the guantlet of torpedo, bomb and mine as well as the cruel sea. A service that during WW2 lost more men per capita than any of the armed services.

Regards
Hugh

[Peter Goodey]

I don't understand what you're saying about Findmypast.

There is one single entry on FamilySearch that matches the details in message #1. This cites the FMP database "Merchant Navy Seamen1835-1941" and further citing BT 112-116, 119-120, series BT350. The corresponding entry in FMP does not use the word "military".

[Pam Downes]

I'm not taking sides, and I may be climbing the wrong tree :biggrin: but . . . .

It is a little confusing.
The entry on FamilySearch where it gives James' name says 'event type' - military service.
But at the side, and then again at the bottom of the page it distinctly says "United Kingdom, Merchant Navy Seamen Records, 1835-1941," [snipped] James Thomas Grant, ; From "Merchant Navy Seamen1835-1941," database and images, findmypast [snipped] citing BT 112-116, 119-120, series BT350, The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey.
with no mention of the word military.

However if you are unwise enough to search the military section as a whole on FMP for James Thomas Grant, the first entry is for one born in 1899 with an entry for 'British Merchant Navy, First World War Medal Cards 1914-1925' which could lead you to think that the Merchant Navy were part of the military. Even more confusing is that this James Thomas Grant was born in Cardiff, so is nothing to do with the one connected to the OP of this thread.

As I said confusing, and I agree that the Merchant Navy is a civilian service, which can serve in war zones. You just have to think back to the Falklands War and the Atlantic Conveyor for one ship.

Pam

[timbo58]

Indeed, and the Merchant Navy men were also awarded military campaign medals which is also where confusion can come in.
However strictly speaking the Merchant Navy are no more 'military' than civil defence in this respect.

As an aside I was attacked once for stating the land army were not military -I kid you not!

[LOVAT#]

I don't understand what you're saying about Findmypast.
There is one single entry on FamilySearch that matches the details in message #1. This cites the FMP database "Merchant Navy Seamen1835-1941" and further citing BT 112-116, 119-120, series BT350. The corresponding entry in FMP does not use the word "military".

All Merchant Navy medal card links in FMP that point to the National Archives, Kew to download show the category as "Military, armed forces & conflict". So ambiguity is present from the beginning for those who are not knowledgeable about the role of the Merchant Navy during wartime or conflict. In this case the medal card highlighted is not for the right person but nonetheless the category is always shown as "Military, armed forces & conflict".
Anyway I think we digress away from the O/Ps question and I am happy that it has been answered and that is what the forum is for.

Regards
Hugh

[gengrant]

I have just returned from holiday to see I have stirred up quite a Hornets Nest. Thanks Hugh for being so non judgemental, (It just goes to show you cant believe everything you read). So we have established he was in the MERCHANT NAVY from 1918-1921, it was about the time his Family moved from Aberdeen to Prestwich and he would have been 14 or 15 years of age. Would he have done an Apprenticeship or signed on as a Cadet? somewhere in the Manchester area.

[LOVAT#]

So we have established he was in the MERCHANT NAVY from 1918-1921,
Hi Gen,
The cards cover the range 1918 - 1921 but he served as far as we can establish from 1921 until the end of 1923 being shown as not regestered after 1923. In those days being taken on as an Apprentice or Cadet would be for the Deck dept. He possibly joined having had some engineering experience/qualifications as a junior engineer and worked his way up.
Regards
Hugh