1939 Register

[valg]

I hadn't had to much interest in the 1939 Register as most family I would be interested in would not be on it because either to young or deceased by then.
But yesterday I decided to buy a credit and look up my dad who was born 1914 so scraped in under the 100 year closure.
Well I am a little perplexed to say the least.
My mum and dad married in 1949 and migrated to Australia in 1956 with then 3 children.
My dad has been deceased since 1974.
Now the 1939 Register has him as married ! First I have heard of that, he was 25 at the time, there is a woman same surname living with him and a third person blocked out obviously because of age.
I am requesting any member who has access to this document to have a look and see what they make of it.
The woman's surname has at some stage been crossed out and another surname added, looking to the left column it looks like a date for this alteration of record.
Looking at info on 1939 Register under unexpected bonuses it states quote.
Sometimes a womans surname will have been crossed out and another surname written, this is usually a name change on marriage, in the search results the surname in 1939 will appear in brackets; if there are more than 2 surnames all but the most recent will be in brackets..unquote.
Ok hope you are following this as I am just confused and a little shocked at the moment, esp seeing the 3rd person in the household record closed, could this be a child..wow!

ok the details if you can have a look
George A Johnson born 2 Jan 1914 Housepainter..( these details are all correct)
Nellie Johnson born 21 June 1902 House duties.
Ref Rg101/4460A/004/12 Find My Past.
Address looks like 140 Warde St County Borough of Manchester.

Dad joined up in the Army in WW2 and was out of the UK for most of the years 1939-1945
On Nellies record Johnson is in Brackets.

Any input would be very appreciated
Val

[christanel]

Hi Val
The Johnson has been crossed out, in green, and replaced with the surname Jones, in green. Did you also see the alteration to her birth date - in red - from 21 June 1902 to 21 June 1900 and written in red in brackets (c120 R ? 21)

I see the date at left as 2/10/62 Man preceded by CR283 Do they give a glossary of acronyms/numbers and their meanings?

I looked for a marriage 1925 - 1939 George A Johnsonto a Nellie and there is only one likely one but it is in Liverpool June 1/4 1936 to a Nellie Ayres.
I couldn't find any births Johnson mmn Ayres 1936 to 1939.
There are two other marriages for a George A Johnson in Manchester S. 1934 to Mary E Brindley, and 1936 to a Florence M Richardson.
3 births to the Brindley marriage before 1939 and 1 possible to the Richardson marriage in March 1/4 1937 Barton reg district.

Christina

[essbee]

Is it possible that Nellie is George's older sister? There's a Nellie Johnson marries a Walter Jones in Manchester in April-Jun 1935. Maybe they got confused about who she was married to. I don't have access to the 1939 register and don't know how it works, so I may be talking through my hat :)

[Pam Downes]

Hi Val,

Nellie is twelve years older than George, and is listed before him, so I would assume that they are not man and wife; more likely - as essbee suggests - to be sister and brother. (Have you not found your grandparents on a census with their older children?)

I read the amendment to Jones as Nellie marrying someone called Jones sometime after the Register was compiled in September 1939, and the entry in the Register was amended in 26 Oct 1962. Usually the Register was amended fairly soon after the marriage, but the most likely actual Nellie I can find married in the Wirral registration district in 1940 to John N Jones. You need to try and find out a little more about Nellie, to see if that was her proper name or a 'variant' (e.g. was she originally called Ellen?)
Nellie was definitely called Johnson at the time the Register was taken.

Pam

[valg]

Hi Pam, No Nellie is definitely not a sibling, I know my fathers maternal and paternal family.
Yes I have my grandparents on census in 1911 with my Auntie Vera, the only sibling of my father born at that time. My grandparents married in 1910
Still there is the issue of my father being noted as married.

[valg]

CR283......is a form used when there is a change of surname, Forename or date of birth ( most changes are surnames..

THis is the explanation given in 1939 Registration info, so I assume she changed her name from Johnson to Jones on 2/10/1962

[Megan Roberts]

I have had a look at the original document and they are in the same household and both noted as married, but that does not mean to one another. The way that they are ordered on the original is that Nellie is No 1 and George is number 2.

I don't know if there were instructions as to who was listed number 1, but as a guess, I would have said that intuitively at that time in history, the husband would be listed first irrespective of age.

Did your dad have any brothers, or cousins who could have married someone called Nellie, or Ellen or something similar?

[valg]

No my dad only had 1 brother and he was killed in 1930....
My Grandad Johnson had a brother and 1 sister, the brother never had any children, the sister married but her childrens names were obviously not Johnson . No Nellies or Ellens amongst them anyway,

[Guy Etchells]

I read it completely differently.

I see the householder being Nellie Johnson born 21 June 1900 (possibly an aunt or an in law).
Living with her as a lodger is George A Johnson born 2 Jan 1914 Housepainter who in 1939 was single.

The reason why I think he was single is because the register seems to have faded lettering inked in sometime before it was scanned.
The correction seems to show both an S & a M (this would also tally with him marrying later (i.e.1949)

The blanked out line seems to be for house number 141 rather than house number 140 where Nellie & George were living.

Did any of George's uncles marry a Nellie?

Cheers
Guy

PS Nellie's husband could have been away at war, perhaps even have died in the war as she seems to have re-married in 1962

[Megan Roberts]

The reason why I think he was single is because the register seems to have faded lettering inked in sometime before it was scanned.
The correction seems to show both an S & a M (this would also tally with him marrying later (i.e.1949)



To me the original is a very clear and definite "M", albeit with a funny squiggle at the top right hand side of the letter. Any changes that were made to the original document were made in a different hand and ink.

It is entirely possible that the original document has an error in it, and that George should have been recorded as single.

The snippet below shows others what we are talking about, and George's recorded marital status is the last letter.

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/304a7c0c-c419-4c23-9193-c64163619e0f.png

[Peter Goodey]

My mum and dad married in 1949

I don't understand why Val hasn't told us what is shown on the marriage certificate as her father's marital status. This is surely fairly fundamental.

Or have I missed it?

[Guy Etchells]

To me the original is a very clear and definite "M", albeit with a funny squiggle at the top right hand side of the letter. Any changes that were made to the original document were made in a different hand and ink.

It is entirely possible that the original document has an error in it, and that George should have been recorded as single.

The snippet below shows others what we are talking about, and George's recorded marital status is the last letter.

https://www.british-genealogy.com/extensions/uploads/304a7c0c-c419-4c23-9193-c64163619e0f.png

That is why I mentioned it looked as if it had been inked in sometime before it was scanned.
It is very common when scanning feint lettering that some of the image is not picked up, therefore in preperation to scanning such words letters or parts are inked in.
On that page of the register there seem to be a number of letters with the last letter partially inked in.

I do not know if inking in was part of the conservation that was carried out prior to scanning on the 1939 but I do know some conservation was carried out.

Cheers
Guy

[valg]

Hi Peter. .Marriage cert to my mum states bachelor, this was 10 years later in 1949.

[valg]

I think my next step will be to order dads WW2 Army records, next of kin will be recorded and as he joined up in early 1940 it may prove helpful.
Even though my dad was stated as bachelor in 1949 on marriage cert I have learnt one thing on my family research journey that such things can never be taken at face value, my GT Aunt was a bigamist, married 3 times!.
Not saying or hoping my dad was just keeping an open mind at present.

[valg]

Is there any way I can request that the original be checked against the transcripted version

[Guy Etchells]

I knew there was a short clip about the scanning of the register somewhere and have found a youtube copy of it.

There is a short video clip showing some of the pre-scanning conservation at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdZE0NP-IVs

If you pause at 0:29 you will see the conservator has a pencil in hand marking the register and at 1:17 there is a partial list of the faults on the register page.

I am therefore more confident that as I mentioned the feint letters have been over written or "inked-in" as I mentioned previously.

It is possible if you wrote to the GRO, Southport giving the full reference
Ref: RG101/4460A/004/12 and
Letter code NJGK,
County borough of Manchester,
Registration District 464-2 you might be able to get someone to check the original paper register but I very much doubt they would do so.

I would suggest you concentrate on checking Nellie Johnson born 21 June 1902 in earlier records to see if you can find out anything about her and also George A Johnson prior to 1939.
For instance there were around 60 Johnson's who married a Nellie ? between 1925 and 1938 in Lancashire according to FreeBMD, do you recognise the first names of any of those 60 men?
Does Nellie Johnson appear on the electoral register for that address prior to 1939?
If so who else is in the house?

Where was George A Johnson prior to 1939 is he on any Electoral Register?

Cheers
Guy

[valg]

Just an update on this.
I mentioned to a cousin in the UK what I had found and she knew the answer!
Seemed it had long been a family secret that my dad had lived in a defacto relationship with the said Nellie!
AS he was only about 23 when they moved in together and she was about 37 and had 3 sons. was quite a scandal for the era...
Apparently they lived as man and wife for several years!, much to my grandparents dismay.
Amazing what time throws up, we were prob never meant to know about this..haha..
No idea if mum ever knew and as both her and dad have passed on I never will know.
So Nellie was using my dads surname on the 1939 register so assume the correction to Jones was her real surname...
Another skeleton uncovered,,

[Wilkes_ml]

If they lived together for several years, they may have had children together. I assume if her real name was JONES, then any children born to them may be registered under JONES rather than JOHNSON.

[Peter Goodey]

If they were living together as man and wife and generally presented themselves as married (as in the 1939 register), it's quite likely that any issue would be registered as legitimate. Children's surnames were not registered in those days, the surname being implied from the parents' name or names.